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Subject: PNP what is reasonable? rss

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Mike L.
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I have developed a game and have been thinking about putting up a basic form of it up for PNP, but the game is card heavy, it can probably play with 75-100 cards (its a dungeon crawler, so yeah). Is it worth it to even post such a thing due to the sheer amount of work that would be required to put it all together. What is the biggest PNP people have printed and played in the past?

There are already plans to post the game rules once I am finished, so this question pertains to posting a working PNP game.
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B C Z
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99 cards is 11 sheets at 9up.
Assuming no bleed and a cutter that can handle up to 9 sheets at a time (for the final cuts), that's 9 cuts per 3 sheets, and you'd have 4 'packs' to do... for a total of 36 cuts.

One 100 pack of sleeves.
100 backer cards - probably lying around or obtainable for a few bucks as 2 normal poker decks.

Entirely reasonable, presuming the game had some replay value in it and was fun.
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Eric Etkin
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Ha! I'm right in the middle of trying to prove this out myself.

I honestly think "what is reasonable" is entirely dependent on player interest in the initial design. If you can attract some players based on your game specs, I think it's reasonable to assume you could probably get away with more printing and assembly.

Put another way: What's reasonable is directly proportional to player interest.

FWIW, TactDecks: Reign of Heroes will have roughly the following:

16 4" tiles (4 pages)
200 Hero/Terrain Tokens (3 pages)
200 cards (25 pages)
Rules (12-16 pages)

Now... that, IMO is a whole lot of potential printing to expect from anyone, regardless of interest. What I've done to mitigate the bulk of it is converting most of the cards into reference charts. In the case of cards that are being used from a random draw, that's converted into a chart and die-roll.

So... at the end of day, I'm providing a base level of commitment (minimum 12 pages or so) and, if players like it, they can go whole-hog (a lot more than 12).

Will this work? Will anyone print and play? I'll have to get back to you on that one...

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MOTHDevil wrote:
Ha! I'm right in the middle of trying to prove this out myself.

I honestly think "what is reasonable" is entirely dependent on player interest in the initial design. If you can attract some players based on your game specs, I think it's reasonable to assume you could probably get away with more printing and assembly.

Put another way: What's reasonable is directly proportional to player interest.

FWIW, TactDecks: Reign of Heroes will have roughly the following:

16 4" tiles (4 pages)
200 Hero/Terrain Tokens (3 pages)
200 cards (25 pages)
Rules (12-16 pages)

Now... that, IMO is a whole lot of potential printing to expect from anyone, regardless of interest. What I've done to mitigate the bulk of it is converting most of the cards into reference charts. In the case of cards that are being used from a random draw, that's converted into a chart and die-roll.

So... at the end of day, I'm providing a base level of commitment (minimum 12 pages or so) and, if players like it, they can go whole-hog (a lot more than 12).

Will this work? Will anyone print and play? I'll have to get back to you on that one...



16 4" tiles (4 pages)
mounting to foam core/backer board
probably individual cuts for each side, so 64 cuts with a straight edge after the mounting is done.

200 Hero/Terrain tokens (3 pages)
mounting to backer board
about 70 tokens per page, which sounds like 1" tokens in a 7x10 array.
If the tokens are butted (no bleed) that is 10 cuts to get 7 strips of 10 token each, and then 10x9 more cuts to get out the individual tokens, which is 100 cuts. Times 3.

200 cards (25 pages)
Means they're printed 8up (not a big fan of 8 up, but ok).
Butted: 9 cuts per pack if you're using a guillotine cutter, could probably do 4 at a time (8 thickness for the final cuts) for 7 packs if you were sleeve/backing them. If not, then you need a much more precise method and are looking at 11 cuts per page - so maximum of 200 cuts here if you're really precise about it.

Unbutted: 18 cuts per sheet, 25 sheets, 450 cuts

Rules (12-16 pages)
Tabloid Print and a staple.

-=-

So up to 800 individual cuts and some mounting involved.

I had better want to play this game to make that happen.
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Guido Van Horn
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I ran a poll a while back that might be interesting to you.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/708162/question-about-im...
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David Fair
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Rolling Stock takes about 25 pages to print, and is unwieldy to try to sleeve, thanks to the odd sized cards.

Still, 35 people made a copy for themselves (hey, it's an 18xx card game, not that many people were interested to begin with)... Your game sounds a lot easier to do...
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Eric Etkin
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byronczimmer wrote:


So up to 800 individual cuts and some mounting involved.

I had better want to play this game to make that happen.


Right, but isn't the majority of that labor based on the 200 cards? If the cards were mostly out of the picture...

Also - My impression was most people like to just sleeve the PNP cards... if that's not the case, I'd consider adjusting the card sizes to something smaller to fit more on a page. My only worry there is shrinking fonts and readability.
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Eric Etkin
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BeyondMonopoly wrote:
Rolling Stock takes about 25 pages to print, and is unwieldy to try to sleeve, thanks to the odd sized cards.

Still, 35 people made a copy for themselves (hey, it's an 18xx card game, not that many people were interested to begin with)... Your game sounds a lot easier to do...


Having assembled a LOT of incremental prototypes for this game has made me hypersensitive to the labor involved. Hence, the charts. It's not a pitch-perfect translation of the gameplay, but it's close.
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MOTHDevil wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:


So up to 800 individual cuts and some mounting involved.

I had better want to play this game to make that happen.


Right, but isn't the majority of that labor based on the 200 cards? If the cards were mostly out of the picture...

Also - My impression was most people like to just sleeve the PNP cards... if that's not the case, I'd consider adjusting the card sizes to something smaller to fit more on a page. My only worry there is shrinking fonts and readability.


non-standard sized cards are a PITA

I had one set I had to cut which looked like they were standard 2.5x3.5 and turned out to be 2.375 x 3.375 // which was much more difficult to cut.

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Mike L.
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Cool, then I will have to drum up some interest and get to making a PNP version of the game (it might take a little while) And thanks Guido, that link was very helpful.
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Eric Etkin
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byronczimmer wrote:
MOTHDevil wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:


So up to 800 individual cuts and some mounting involved.

I had better want to play this game to make that happen.


Right, but isn't the majority of that labor based on the 200 cards? If the cards were mostly out of the picture...

Also - My impression was most people like to just sleeve the PNP cards... if that's not the case, I'd consider adjusting the card sizes to something smaller to fit more on a page. My only worry there is shrinking fonts and readability.


non-standard sized cards are a PITA

I had one set I had to cut which looked like they were standard 2.5x3.5 and turned out to be 2.375 x 3.375 // which was much more difficult to cut.



Do you have a preferred layout/go-to template for cards? I'd like to get this nailed down before I start laying all of these out. As time-consuming as physical cuts are... making PNP pages for 200 cards is worse. I'd like to get it right the first time and minimize cuts..
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Mike L.
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How does card size affect cutting cards out? Currently I use a pair of scissors to cut everything out, so its always a pain.
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nitro9090 wrote:
How does card size affect cutting cards out? Currently I use a pair of scissors to cut everything out, so its always a pain.


From a standard 8.5" x 11" sheet of US Letter, print the 9 up card images centered on paper.

Then on a guillotine cutter:

Landscape starting orientation:
10.75": cut
90 degree turn
8": cut
90 degree turn
10.5": cut
90 degree turn
7.5": cut
5": cut
2.5: cut
take resulting stacks of 10.5"x2.5" turn 90 degrees
7": cut
3.5: cut
DONE

No cut lines, just going off of the paper itself, which self corrects after the first two cuts if it wasn't perfectly aligned to begin with.

I do this when watching television and it's almost automatic.

8-ups aren't terrible, but you get less per sheet and more waste.
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Nate K
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byronczimmer wrote:

non-standard sized cards are a PITA



Delicious. I love pita bread.
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Eric Etkin
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I'll be honest - I'm not sure what a "9 up" is. I had some help on my last PNP offering, so the templates were already done for me.
 
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9-up
|--- 7.5" --|
+---+---+---+ ---
| | | | |
| | | | |
+---+---+---+ |
| | | | 10.5"
| | | | |
+---+---+---+ |
| | | | |
| | | | |
+---+---+---+ ---


8-up

|----- 10" -----|
+---+---+---+---+ ---
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
+---+---+---+---+ 7"
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
+---+---+---+---+ ---


7-up

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Derek H
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MOTHDevil wrote:

I'll be honest - I'm not sure what a "9 up" is. I had some help on my last PNP offering, so the templates were already done for me.

A 3x3 grid. I think that is pretty much the standard for "playing card" size cards.

Hmm. Beaten by a post being invisible because it was being edited?!?
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Eric Etkin
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Thanks! I'll do that.
(The 9up... not the 7up)

Seems like this would be so much easier for everyone if home printers could do full bleed...
 
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Eric Etkin
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gamesbook wrote:
MOTHDevil wrote:

I'll be honest - I'm not sure what a "9 up" is. I had some help on my last PNP offering, so the templates were already done for me.

A 3x3 grid. I think that is pretty much the standard for "playing card" size cards.

Hmm. Beaten by a post being invisible because it was being edited?!?


You still get points for effort.
 
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MOTHDevil wrote:
Thanks! I'll do that.
(The 9up... not the 7up)

Seems like this would be so much easier for everyone if home printers could do full bleed...


You mean to edge of paper? 1/4" margins are usually okay on the side.

If not, go with the 8-up plan, it gives you a minimum of 1/2 margins.

As for 7-up, I prefer sprite.
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gamesbook wrote:
MOTHDevil wrote:

I'll be honest - I'm not sure what a "9 up" is. I had some help on my last PNP offering, so the templates were already done for me.

A 3x3 grid. I think that is pretty much the standard for "playing card" size cards.

Hmm. Beaten by a post being invisible because it was being edited?!?


First grids didn't turn out right.

As to 'standard playing card size'...

That depends.

For US based players, 2.5"x3.5" is poker-card sized and works very well from US Letter paper.

European sizes are mm based and slightly different (mostly based on the standardized sizes of paper over there)
 
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John "Omega" Williams
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Standard card size is 2 1/2 x 3 1/2 inches or about 6.3 x 8.9 cm

The 3x3 grid is about the best use of a sheet of paper or cardstock.

As for what is reasonable... well... Try THIS for an example...

Escape from the Haunted Mansion

Yes, its a PnP papercraft. About near the extreme end of what people will be willing to splurge on.

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