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Greg Lott
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I'm an avid fan of Bloodbowl and was excited to give this a try. Let's face it, BB's rules haven't really aged that well so I was excited for an unofficial re-boot, especially one not in the hands of GW. I read the rulebook last night and see lots of really good things, but I my heart sunk when I read one particular part.

You cannot throw a pass or "strike" if there is a standing model in the way.

"sigh"

I HATED this about Bloodbowl. It always seemed painfully clear to me when playing BB that the creators had obviously never seen a game of American Football. If real QB's were unable to throw over anyone, there'd be a real problem. Of course, in BB you CAN throw over someone, but some guy standing in the middle, at the assumed peak height of the balls flight, would be able to intercept it. That always REALLY bothered me because it physically made no sense. I was looking forward to something that came closer to reality, but alas, it's even worse in DB. The trajectories of these "weapons grade" titanium balls (Weapons Grade? Titanium is radioactive in the future?) must be traveling at zero arc. Some serious velocity! But if that's the case, then throwing should essentially have unlimited range. Honestly, not being able to throw over a standing model just makes no sense.

And lastly... what the heck exactly IS a 'strike'? Is the player throwing the ball at the floor? At some target on the ceiling? Why does he have to stand in one particular spot to do this? If he's throwing at the ceiling, once again why does it matter if anyone is in the way? If he's throwing it at the floor... how hard can that be? I'm trying to wrap my head around what EXACTLY is happening during a strike. This is a miniature game, so physics and physicality really shouldn't be abstracted to the degree that I think we've taken it to here.

Hope I don't sound too negative. The miniatures look really nice (yay plastic!), and the rules for the most part are a nice departure from BB.
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Sebastian Grawan
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Quote:
BB's rules haven't really aged that well
In my humble opinion the game's still very playable, if a bit slow (and semi-hard to learn to newcomers). I've played a nice Hum/Orcs match yesterday and had a lot of fun.
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You cannot throw a pass or "strike" if there is a standing model in the way.
That's because the ball in Dreadball isn't thrown, it's launched by energised gloves at over 200mph. The ball in Dreadball is more of a weapon as in any other similar sports game.
Think, eh, pinball machine!! Metal ball at high speed, going straight.
You can even shoot the ball at enemy players to hurt them. ^.^

Quote:
And lastly... what the heck exactly IS a 'strike'? Is the player throwing the ball at the floor? At some target on the ceiling? Why does he have to stand in one particular spot to do this? If he's throwing at the ceiling, once again why does it matter if anyone is in the way? If he's throwing it at the floor... how hard can that be? I'm trying to wrap my head around what EXACTLY is happening during a strike. This is a miniature game, so physics and physicality really shouldn't be abstracted to the degree that I think we've taken it to here.
I THINK that the ball is plunged into a scoring hole of some sort.
But you are right. The whole fluff of scoring should've been described and fleshed out more thoroughly.
And they don't have to stand in ONE particular spot to score, they just have to stand inside the given scoring field (or better the scoring hex, which will give bonus points when scoring a strike from it).
And, you are able to score if the enemy is standing right on top of the strike hex, it's in the rules.

EDIT: stuff ^.^
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Karl Hiesterman
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While there's no doubt the BB is based on American football, I've never made the assumption that Dreadball was also supposed to be an American football game. A sports game, yes, but not the same sport. I think it feels more like Basketball combined with Rollerball...

And as far as scored, I've seen it as a shot at a target, again similar to the goal scoring in Rollerball. Perhaps something either floating on anti-grav or suspended from the ceiling...
 
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Bwian, just
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ferris1971 wrote:
And lastly... what the heck exactly IS a 'strike'? Is the player throwing the ball at the floor? At some target on the ceiling? Why does he have to stand in one particular spot to do this? If he's throwing at the ceiling, once again why does it matter if anyone is in the way? If he's throwing it at the floor... how hard can that be? I'm trying to wrap my head around what EXACTLY is happening during a strike. This is a miniature game, so physics and physicality really shouldn't be abstracted to the degree that I think we've taken it to here.

I was going to try to track down the fluff, but with 100 Kickstarter updates to go through I'm afraid I'll have to go from memory.

When you enter the strike zone, the target for that zone appears. In a fancy stadium, it'll be a holographic projection; in more economical settings, it'll be a physical target that swings up from the floor. I think of the Pyramid targets from newBSG, only with a single "goal" per strike zone, facing toward the middle of the field.

(As my memory is notoriously faulty, this should be taken with several grains of Corporation-approved TableSpice(tm).)
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Greg Lott
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Bwian wrote:
ferris1971 wrote:
And lastly... what the heck exactly IS a 'strike'? Is the player throwing the ball at the floor? At some target on the ceiling? Why does he have to stand in one particular spot to do this? If he's throwing at the ceiling, once again why does it matter if anyone is in the way? If he's throwing it at the floor... how hard can that be? I'm trying to wrap my head around what EXACTLY is happening during a strike. This is a miniature game, so physics and physicality really shouldn't be abstracted to the degree that I think we've taken it to here.

I was going to try to track down the fluff, but with 100 Kickstarter updates to go through I'm afraid I'll have to go from memory.

When you enter the strike zone, the target for that zone appears. In a fancy stadium, it'll be a holographic projection; in more economical settings, it'll be a physical target that swings up from the floor. I think of the Pyramid targets from newBSG, only with a single "goal" per strike zone, facing toward the middle of the field.

(As my memory is notoriously faulty, this should be taken with several grains of Corporation-approved TableSpice(tm).)


Ummm... This is starting to sound like quiditch. I need a picture or something.
 
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Sebastian Grawan
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I think Dreadball is a lot like Speedball 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zH5_h5iowgc

Rollerball:


Pyramid:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/spacechurro/4922568196/
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Greg Lott
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rashktah wrote:
Quote:
BB's rules haven't really aged that well
In my humble opinion the game's still very playable, if a bit slow (and semi-hard to learn to newcomers). I've played a nice Hum/Orcs match yesterday and had a lot of fun.
Quote:

You cannot throw a pass or "strike" if there is a standing model in the way.
That's because the ball in Dreadball isn't thrown, it's launched by energised gloves at over 200mph. The ball in Dreadball is more of a weapon as in any other similar sports game.
Think, eh, pinball machine!! Metal ball at high speed, going straight.
You can even shoot the ball at enemy players to hurt them. ^.^

Quote:
And lastly... what the heck exactly IS a 'strike'? Is the player throwing the ball at the floor? At some target on the ceiling? Why does he have to stand in one particular spot to do this? If he's throwing at the ceiling, once again why does it matter if anyone is in the way? If he's throwing it at the floor... how hard can that be? I'm trying to wrap my head around what EXACTLY is happening during a strike. This is a miniature game, so physics and physicality really shouldn't be abstracted to the degree that I think we've taken it to here.
I THINK that the ball is plunged into a scoring hole of some sort.
But you are right. The whole fluff of scoring should've been described and fleshed out more thoroughly.
And they don't have to stand in ONE particular spot to score, they just have to stand inside the given scoring field (or better the scoring hex, which will give bonus points when scoring a strike from it).
And, you are able to score if the enemy is standing right on top of the strike hex, it's in the rules.

EDIT: stuff ^.^


I still LIKE BB, but it's cumbersome.
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Robert Kingery
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Agree with above. Games don't need to be over complicated to be tactical.
 
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Hogan Brimacombe
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So in a regular game is this every really going to be a huge problem? I find that on a hexagonal board assuming you are in the strike zone they would have to commit two people at least to stopping you from getting to the strike hex as there are usually at least two paths of equally short distance to the goal, even including the bonus hex as their is no restriction that you must trace the shortest path to the goal through the strike zone hexes. I cant imagine too many teams willing to commit two players each to just blocking up a strike zone especially when a guard can come and just remove them with relative ease. Your offense would be just terrible! In the orthagonal square world of blood bowl it was more of a problem, but with hexes shortest path is a beautiful thing.
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Greg Lott
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hoganbball23 wrote:
So in a regular game is this every really going to be a huge problem? I find that on a hexagonal board assuming you are in the strike zone they would have to commit two people at least to stopping you from getting to the strike hex as there are usually at least two paths of equally short distance to the goal, even including the bonus hex as their is no restriction that you must trace the shortest path to the goal through the strike zone hexes. I cant imagine too many teams willing to commit two players each to just blocking up a strike zone especially when a guard can come and just remove them with relative ease. Your offense would be just terrible! In the orthagonal square world of blood bowl it was more of a problem, but with hexes shortest path is a beautiful thing.


Interesting. Now that I think about it, you're probably right.
 
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ferris1971 wrote:
hoganbball23 wrote:
So in a regular game is this every really going to be a huge problem? I find that on a hexagonal board assuming you are in the strike zone they would have to commit two people at least to stopping you from getting to the strike hex as there are usually at least two paths of equally short distance to the goal, even including the bonus hex as their is no restriction that you must trace the shortest path to the goal through the strike zone hexes. I cant imagine too many teams willing to commit two players each to just blocking up a strike zone especially when a guard can come and just remove them with relative ease. Your offense would be just terrible! In the orthagonal square world of blood bowl it was more of a problem, but with hexes shortest path is a beautiful thing.


Interesting. Now that I think about it, you're probably right.


You CAN however block the bonus strike with a single player. You can only attempt the bonus strike from the hex furthest away from the strike hex and the shortest path is the straight line connecting the two hexes so that attempt can be blocked with a single player.
 
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Greg Lott
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Stunke wrote:
ferris1971 wrote:
hoganbball23 wrote:
So in a regular game is this every really going to be a huge problem? I find that on a hexagonal board assuming you are in the strike zone they would have to commit two people at least to stopping you from getting to the strike hex as there are usually at least two paths of equally short distance to the goal, even including the bonus hex as their is no restriction that you must trace the shortest path to the goal through the strike zone hexes. I cant imagine too many teams willing to commit two players each to just blocking up a strike zone especially when a guard can come and just remove them with relative ease. Your offense would be just terrible! In the orthagonal square world of blood bowl it was more of a problem, but with hexes shortest path is a beautiful thing.


Interesting. Now that I think about it, you're probably right.


You CAN however block the bonus strike with a single player. You can only attempt the bonus strike from the hex furthest away from the strike hex and the shortest path is the straight line connecting the two hexes so that attempt can be blocked with a single player.


I do wish you could throw over models. I get that this is more than simply "throwing" a ball around, but you should still be able to throw over a model, ESPECIALLY in a strike. Would it really be that game breaking? Scoring seems fast and furious anyways... Would this really unbalance things?
 
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Hogan Brimacombe
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Agreed. I wonder though if it would make sense to set up a player that can actually interact with the ball or a guard. I can see it going both ways.
 
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Sebastian Grawan
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You can throw the ball over a model when it stands on the strike hex.
 
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rashktah wrote:
You can throw the ball over a model when it stands on the strike hex.


I know. That shouldn't be the only time.
 
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I think the game balance works pretty well now and I'm not sure adding the ability to throw over (and thus by extension some kind of interception mechanic) would add much and it would certainly change that balance.

Generally it isn't all that difficult to pass through enemy lines anyway. You can move as part of a throw, the 'catcher' can take an action first, be passed to and then take another action etc. If you made that kind of play even easier then it would throw the balance of the game towards the teams with faster moving and striker equipped teams that seem to do well enough as is.

I wouldn't mind seeing some more skills adding and if they chose to make this kind of shot a skill that would probably add some interesting variety (it could be called richocet shots, which use the roof/floor to get past player) but adds an additional -1 dice to the throw.
 
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Sebastian Grawan
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Maybe some of the 'advanced' teams will be able to pass over opposing players or something like that. Who knows what the future'll bring.
 
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Mark Johnson
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Given that the target is either a smallish hologram or suspended target I doubt throwing over somebody would ever be likely to result in a Strike.

Throwing over people to another player may be viable as a future option though, with a -1 Throw roll.
 
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daelhoof wrote:
Given that the target is either a smallish hologram or suspended target I doubt throwing over somebody would ever be likely to result in a Strike.

Throwing over people to another player may be viable as a future option though, with a -1 Throw roll.


I think the game is fine as is, but I pretty much disagree with everything you just said.

Throwing over someone is NOT hard. Try it. Get a football and three people. Space two of them 15 feet away from each other, and give one of them the ball. Throw some one in the middle and play a game of keep away. The guy in the middle will get tired of the game very quickly.

And, yeah, the hologram is harder to hit. That's why you get -1 to the strike. I see no reason why throwing OVER someone to hit something above ground makes any difference. It's not like the guy you're throwing over is hindering the thrower in ANY way. You just... throw over him. You essentially ignore him.
 
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ferris1971 wrote:
I think the game is fine as is, but I pretty much disagree with everything you just said.

Throwing over someone is NOT hard. Try it. Get a football and three people. Space two of them 15 feet away from each other, and give one of them the ball. Throw some one in the middle and play a game of keep away. The guy in the middle will get tired of the game very quickly.


But also remember this is not a normal "throw", they are often using launchers and not just their hands so the ball is flying at a much greater velocity and would often end up in the crowd!

ferris1971 wrote:
And, yeah, the hologram is harder to hit. That's why you get -1 to the strike. I see no reason why throwing OVER someone to hit something above ground makes any difference. It's not like the guy you're throwing over is hindering the thrower in ANY way. You just... throw over him. You essentially ignore him.


But it's a small vertical target which really needs a clear shot to get right. Throwing over somebody would most likely result in a miss. It's not like a standard football goal where it's still a goal if it goes beyond the target or hits the ground roughly in the area.
 
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daelhoof wrote:
ferris1971 wrote:
I think the game is fine as is, but I pretty much disagree with everything you just said.

Throwing over someone is NOT hard. Try it. Get a football and three people. Space two of them 15 feet away from each other, and give one of them the ball. Throw some one in the middle and play a game of keep away. The guy in the middle will get tired of the game very quickly.


But also remember this is not a normal "throw", they are often using launchers and not just their hands so the ball is flying at a much greater velocity and would often end up in the crowd!

ferris1971 wrote:
And, yeah, the hologram is harder to hit. That's why you get -1 to the strike. I see no reason why throwing OVER someone to hit something above ground makes any difference. It's not like the guy you're throwing over is hindering the thrower in ANY way. You just... throw over him. You essentially ignore him.


But it's a small vertical target which really needs a clear shot to get right. Throwing over somebody would most likely result in a miss. It's not like a standard football goal where it's still a goal if it goes beyond the target or hits the ground roughly in the area.


Yeah, I know... No worries, it's all good. Just need to find time to paint these buggers.
 
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Mark Johnson
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I'm still waiting for a number of boxes to be shipped from interstate where I've been working a year... So want to start painting these!
 
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