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Subject: Just got it..... is this a joke? rss

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Edwin Santoni
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So is the included rulebook supposed to be useless? Read through it, and feel like I still don't know how to play. There so many questions. Is this how the game is going to launch to retail? Because I see nothing but frustration from players who buy into this. The game says 2-6 players, yet the rules are written for one on one. Friend and I are going over the cards and pathetic rule poster and this has to be the sloppiest rulebook I've ever seen.

Is this just a kickstarter thing that I didn't keep up with or is the game going to get a proper retail release with an actual rulebook that lets people sit down and understand how to play the game? Pretty disappointing first impressions.
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Brad Miller
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LOL.

There's a reason games are going to KS rather than going through "tradional" publishing routes. Reasons like editors...
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Bruno Gaia
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This is the reason why they released the long form rule.
I read these and they make sense indeed but they let you realize that PURGE is quite a complicated game.
It seems (I've seen it on their site) that the short rule book was intended to pretend that the game was easy to learn play with short rules.
Anyway, when I read that on the site I had the same feeling.
My "coregamer" mindset allowed me to fill in the blanks but you're right, they will get bad words if they launch the retail version with those rules.
And the 2-6 players sure is a mistake they made. The game will accommodate 2-6 ONCE THE PROPER EXPANSION IS OUT. Until then it's 2 (which fits my personal needs perfectly)
Some more bad reviews if they don't make that clear.

My hope now is that the game is good (2 player for now) meaning they've spent all their time on the game itself (and grabbing the ludicrously good artwork) and been flimsy with such "details" as rules and number of players on the box... laugh
 
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Bruno Gaia
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Windopaene wrote:
LOL.

There's a reason games are going to KS rather than going through "tradional" publishing routes. Reasons like editors...


Tongue in cheek!
I'd soften that statement by saying that KS also allows some games that would have been refused my editors to appear BECAUSE they target a niche and editors want to target a very large audience (see... FFG...)
But it's true that the problems the OP points out show a lack of "editing".
Now let's face it: it was a very "indie" project from day one and one dedicated to very hardcore gamers (no luck, etc) so I think we should forget about any rough edges (well... rougher edges) and concentrate on the actual (1 vs 1) gaming experience.
With the market we have now we're all living in a glass house so let's not throw stones too quickly...
 
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Matt Shinners
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brunogaia wrote:

I'd soften that statement by saying that KS also allows some games that would have been refused my editors to appear BECAUSE they target a niche and editors want to target a very large audience


Those are publishers, not editors. The big publishers can afford competent editors to work on their materials. Some of the smaller guys don't view it as a good investment because, hey, they made the game, they should be able to write a good manual for it.

That often doesn't work out well.
 
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MattShinners wrote:
brunogaia wrote:

I'd soften that statement by saying that KS also allows some games that would have been refused my editors to appear BECAUSE they target a niche and editors want to target a very large audience


Those are publishers, not editors. The big publishers can afford competent editors to work on their materials. Some of the smaller guys don't view it as a good investment because, hey, they made the game, they should be able to write a good manual for it.

That often doesn't work out well.


Yeah, early morning made me make that mistake. I still think the comment I quoted implied something on that line too.
And sure enough, editing rules is a hell of a task (I do it time after time with my own) and one that shouldn't be viewed as accessory...

Now I hope NFE will take that bad feedback very seriously and make the necessary changes to the retail version.

Until then, KS people can easily use the long form rule that is already available on KS (ugly at the moment, but quite clear IMO).

And, as I wrote earlier, a quick summary of some rules would really come handy.

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Edwin Santoni
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What, have to wait for expansion to play with up to 6? They really left that on the game box when its not true? Ugh. I see theirs a more detailed rulebooks in what appears to be a word document type deal, ok thats a bit better, but they better still release the game to retail in a far better state than this mess. The game cards even have abilities on them that are not even in the included rulesheet now that we are going through the units and such.
 
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Matt Johnson
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PanzerKraken wrote:
So is the included rulebook supposed to be useless? Read through it, and feel like I still don't know how to play. There so many questions. Is this how the game is going to launch to retail? Because I see nothing but frustration from players who buy into this. The game says 2-6 players, yet the rules are written for one on one. Friend and I are going over the cards and pathetic rule poster and this has to be the sloppiest rulebook I've ever seen.

Is this just a kickstarter thing that I didn't keep up with or is the game going to get a proper retail release with an actual rulebook that lets people sit down and understand how to play the game? Pretty disappointing first impressions.


I'll start by stepping up to the plate and admitting that the Short Form Rules included in the product don't give me the "warm and fuzzies".

However, the decision to print the current short form rules and include them in the product as the initial instructions ultimately boiled down to one factor: cost.

We had 3 options for creation of the rules document to be included in the product:

1) A multiple page paper back Long Form Rules book, which would have required a binding process during production and massive amounts of material, graphic design and editing.

2) A Poster (28x36) sized document, folded a dozen times, which essentially would be an unbounded form of option 1 all cluttered together onto one massive sheet of paper and would still require tremendous graphic design work, material cost and most likely would be more frustrating than the next option.

3) The current Short Form Rules, intended to be a summary of the Long Form Rules, backed up by an online version of the Long Form Rules and demos to clear up any questions.

We chose option 3 because the other two options would have forced us to increase our unit price by about 25% or so.

We also know that players would inevitably have Rules based questions once they opened the box, looked at the content and read the contained rules. Our assumption was that players would scan the QR code on the bottom of the box or go online to our website and obtain the Long Form Rules and view the demo videos for clarification.

NFE has taken all KS and BGG comments (even the nastiest ones) seriously. The product included rules is not a ruse to have people believe PURGE is a simple game....because it is not. But was an honest attempt, under many constraints, to introduce players to an artistically pleasing, full strategy card game.

And yes, Bruno, we are working on a better game-play summary

PAX
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Ben McGuire
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Yes everyone, just get the long rules online. And if you have any questions, these guys answer fast and clear.
 
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Bruno Gaia
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I sure didn't see no ruse in introducing a shorter version of the rules! Actually it's a trend that everyone can see in eurogaming and that's why FAQ are sooooo massive on BGG now!
Anyway, the long form is definitely okay and since we pledged KS we all have the internet don't we?
 
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Edwin Santoni
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I think short version of rules are fine, but it should be mandatory that a game come with it's complete rulebook with the actual product. I've never once had a card or board game come without it's full rulebook. And the short version of the rules that come with the game just don't even feel like it even teaches you the game. Most quick start rules for a game let you get off the ground and running, but the one with Purge is highly incomplete, so I have to go online and download how to play the game?

Yes the long form rules answer much more (though still seem very sloppy with so many questions being compiled in my head). My frustration though lies with how piss poor the short rules are and a game being released without a proper rulebook. How was the price of the friggin rulebook not even considered into the cost aspect of the game when this kickstarter was done?
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Robert Rossney
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Not being able to afford to include the rules with the game and shipping it anyway makes me suspect that there are other problems that the designer decided weren't solvable.
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Yiorgos Golfinopoulos
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I am happy to have purchased this at a lower price even at the expense of a decent rulebook. The complete rules are available to anyone, anyway, so what's the fuss?

And by the way, it was known to all pledgers that the short (aka shitty) rulebook was to be included in the game.

I 'd suggest to go read the long form rules, play the game and come back to tell us how it is. That's what really matters, to me at least.
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Bruno Gaia
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PanzerKraken wrote:
I think short version of rules are fine, but it should be mandatory that a game come with it's complete rulebook with the actual product. I've never once had a card or board game come without it's full rulebook. And the short version of the rules that come with the game just don't even feel like it even teaches you the game. Most quick start rules for a game let you get off the ground and running, but the one with Purge is highly incomplete, so I have to go online and download how to play the game?

Yes the long form rules answer much more (though still seem very sloppy with so many questions being compiled in my head). My frustration though lies with how piss poor the short rules are and a game being released without a proper rulebook. How was the price of the friggin rulebook not even considered into the cost aspect of the game when this kickstarter was done?


Not trying to defend NFE at any cost but I've bought close to a dozen games (and good ones among them!) which had very poorly written rules in the bow, two of them at least with near useless rules that were not enough to properly start playing without major issues.

Notwithstanding if they've edited the rules without the "chronometry" special ability, they sure made a mistake... If the game is any good, it can do with the KS/BGG community (the reviews will save the day for the game) but it sure won't do if it goes retail tha way...
Sigh...
A small warning with an addendum about chronometry would be the strict minimum on THAT case... AND precising that the long form rules are online.
 
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Boofus wrote:
I am happy to have purchased this at a lower price even at the expense of a decent rulebook. The complete rules are available to anyone, anyway, so what's the fuss?

And by the way, it was known to all pledgers that the short (aka shitty) rulebook was to be included in the game.

I 'd suggest to go read the long form rules, play the game and come back to tell us how it is. That's what really matters, to me at least.


+1

The game, the game, the game.
100%
 
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Adrian Lovelace
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i wish i could find an actual review. this is a card game... it appears to be made by ccg players.. heres a few things about card games.

1. players supply their own tokens, so stop complaining that they are not included. even mini games tend to sell tokens and templates as a seperate purchase. only board games include tokens.

2. the rules books included in modern ccgs are little crappy fold out rules that end up getting thrown away. ive read the rules and it seems pretty straight forward. one ability isnt listed that ive seen.. but its on the mat and im sure its in the online rules... take 3 mins and look it up and stop condemning the entire project for it.

3. most all ccgs are really only for 2 players and anything on top of that can make the game break down quick, except for V:tes which is made to be multiplayer and falls apart with less players.

if you are a strict board gamer or mini gamer and do not like card games.... why did you buy it? these concerns were brought up multiple times during the KS campaign so at this point if it was a problem you should have rectracted your backing $$. please stop beating the dead horse and add some useful content.
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Bruno Gaia
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thrasher80 wrote:
i wish i could find an actual review. this is a card game... it appears to be made by ccg players.. heres a few things about card games.

1. players supply their own tokens, so stop complaining that they are not included. even mini games tend to sell tokens and templates as a seperate purchase. only board games include tokens.

2. the rules books included in modern ccgs are little crappy fold out rules that end up getting thrown away. ive read the rules and it seems pretty straight forward. one ability isnt listed that ive seen.. but its on the mat and im sure its in the online rules... take 3 mins and look it up and stop condemning the entire project for it.

3. most all ccgs are really only for 2 players and anything on top of that can make the game break down quick, except for V:tes which is made to be multiplayer and falls apart with less players.

if you are a strict board gamer or mini gamer and do not like card games.... why did you buy it? these concerns were brought up multiple times during the KS campaign so at this point if it was a problem you should have rectracted your backing $$. please stop beating the dead horse and add some useful content.


As you can guess, I 100% agree with that!
I wish I had my own copy to post the first review at last.
and believe me IF I think the game is not good enough I'll write it but it's the GAME I'll be reviewing, not fussing about details!
We all know that KS edited project can have rough edges.
And let's not forget that YES a lot of games nowadays come out with poorly written rules that need TONS of FAQ!!!!
 
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Christopher B
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The last games I bought from Fantasy Flight Games had so poor rules that they have been reworded and replaced with online printable rulebooks before I even opened my game box.

Including a rulebook for the sake of the inclusion of a rulebook? Even if it won't be usable as such because it's outdated? I can do without something like that.
Give me a good and updated pdf and I'm happy.
 
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The included Rule Book just gives a quick run-down of the game. It's supposed to be inviting and give you the jist. Just like the Magic the Gathering rule book is an abridged version of the rules as to not overwhelm or confuse a new player.
 
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Bruno Gaia
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Er it might be a doublon from things I've written before but..
Hey guys, stop being selfish! Think of those who are still waiting for their game: post first impressions pleeeeaaaase!
 
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Ben McGuire
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Quote:
Er it might be a doublon from things I've written before but..
Hey guys, stop being selfish! Think of those who are still waiting for their game: post first impressions pleeeeaaaase!



I haven't been able to gather anyone yet for a full game, but a friend and I played about 3 or 4 Turns just to see how the mechanics work. I am very excited to get a real game completed. I had a lot of questions, and I have been posting them here on the geek. Any questions I have asked were answered within hours of posting them, and all the answers made sense. There are a few rough edges, like changes that were made after the cards were printed and some clarification issues, but it looks like a hell of a lot of fun.

What drew me to it is the fact that the game actions work in reverse, which is where the "RTS" comes into play in this otherwise turn based game. For a very general example, in battle, I attack an enemy infantry (lets say defense 2 and life 3) with my tank (lets say attack 3). So, I declare the attack, and it goes on the "stack"

1) Tank attacks infantry [for 3 (attack) - 2 (defense) = -1 life]

BUT, then I play a card that boosts my attack by 2 points. So now, the stack is

1) Tank attacks infantry
2) Attacker buffs attack by 2

So now, per the rules, the defender can play a card if he wishes. So lets say the defender plays a card that boosts infantry defense by 1.

1) Tank attacks infantry
2) Attacker buffs attack by 2
3) Defender buffs defense by 1

Now, per the rules, the attacker can play another card, but lets say he's out of power or doesn't want to play anything else at this time. So now, you resolve the "stack" in REVERSE ORDER:

Defender buffs defense by 1 [infantry defense 3 (2+1), life 3]

Attacker buffs attack by 2 [tank attack 5 (3+2)]

Tank attacks infantry [for 5 (attack) - 3 (defense) = -2 life]

So even though the attacker buffed his damage, the defender had a chance to counter, thus saving his unit from taking 3 damage and dying. Again, this is a very basic example of how the system works, but I think it opens up many possibilities for interesting counter of a -> counter of a -> counter of a -> counter moves.


The other half of the game that is "RTS" is the base building, upgrading, and resource management. You can build buildings to upgrade your tech level and increase your resource generation, but every action you take on building upgrades is one more action the enemy can take building units to come destroy you. Also, you have to plan out your power consumption carefully, as many of the nice cards to use in battle take power to use.

The way a Turn works is nice to, as the Turn is not over till both players decide it is over. So if one player spends all his power buying one thing as one action, the other player has as much time as he needs to purchase, plan, and move units around. In the short couple of turns I played, my adversary spent a whole turn just buying one thing and passing (he only had one unit that was good for defense so he didn't want to move him). However, until I pass, the Turn is not over. So I cranked out three cheapo units, buffed them a little bit, moved them to the middle, then moved them into his stronghold to put the hurting on him. This was all in the same Turn, so you have to be careful what you do and always have your guard up.

We will see how my first full game goes...
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Bruno Gaia
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@Ben: now I'm salivating and looking forward to reading more (until I can eventually lay my hands on my copy XD!)
Thanks for that Ben!
 
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Matt Shinners
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raymeus3 wrote:

So even though the attacker buffed his damage, the defender had a chance to counter, thus saving his unit from taking 3 damage and dying. Again, this is a very basic example of how the system works, but I think it opens up many possibilities for interesting counter of a -> counter of a -> counter of a -> counter moves.


Not that I think it's a bad mechanic, but how is it different than the First-In-Last-Out rule that's the basis for Magic: The Gathering?
 
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Adrian Lovelace
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@matt it is the same as the magic rule
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Ben McGuire
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Ok, I didn't say it was a 100% original idea, but it is original enough within the context of being not magic the gathering, which is a thumbs up for me.

You can't have a true RTS card game; that's like saying you have a FPS board game. However, the mechanic helps by having things happen "at the same time" in a turn based game. What I see that is different from magic, at least the last magic I played (yuck), is that the "stack" can get really huge, really fast. And it's awesome that the whole thing could start with "unit 1 attacks unit 2" and the result, 6 cards later, is "unit 1 dies, unit 2 is undamaged, and some unit 3 is destroyed" through lots of flavor filled buffing, redirecting, etc.

I'm not casting a fireball and having it reflect back at me, only to block it; instead, I am attacking a line of alien infantry, tanks, and defense turrets with my 30 story tall metal juggernaut's ultimate attack before burning out into a massive explosion.
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