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Subject: What is the point of Pardek's Crew ability? rss

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Mercutio Wycliffe
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Pardek wrote:
INTERRUPT: The player who played this card gets 2 Victory Points.
SABOTEUR: This ship may not initiate combat.

As far as I understand strategy in this game, action economy is important. The sooner you get VP, the better. Since there is nothing to indicate that the Romulan player cannot simply play this card and gain 2 easy VP, why would you ever play him as Crew? Aside from the fact that this card is woefully imbalanced against Kirk or The Old Way (which each require some effort), if I honestly thought my opponent would be better served by hamstringing my ship than by actual points, I would just give him the points. Sure, I could use transporter actions to move him around and attempt to outwit and outmaneuver my opponent, but therin lies the other weirdness: by playing this card as Crew and not free VP, the Romulan player is actually giving the other player control over his resources. Where is the sense in that? Why let my opponent determine when I can or cannot gain VP?
 
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Eric Foldenauer
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I don't think that interrupt ability can be used unless that crew card is on an opponent's ship. Also, only the person who controls the ship can use that interrupt ability.
 
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Mercutio Wycliffe
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fograsher wrote:
I don't think that interrupt ability can be used unless that crew card is on an opponent's ship.
Where does it say that?
Quote:
Also, only the person who controls the ship can use that interrupt ability.

That is why it is foolish to play it on a ship. You are giving your opponent a choice. Why let them choose whichever is the lesser of two evils for them when you have the power in the first place?
 
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Eric Foldenauer
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The rules don't specifically say anywhere that I could find that the Ops ability or the combat abilities on a saboteur crew card can only be used when they are aboard ship specifically, but it sure seems that was the intent. Personally, I think it was an oversight in the rules. They mentioned that espionage abilities can't be played out of hand, but they don't say anything about ops or combat actions of saboteurs. Giving the Romulan two free VP anytime they want just to discard this card doesn't make any sense in the spirit of the game as you have pointed out.

Pardek is played on an opponent's ship. That ship may not make a combat action unless said opponent discards Pardek as an interrupt, which gives the Romulan player 2VP. That is the intent of the card. Just playing Pardek from your hand for 2VP requires no effort which is different than any other form of earning VP in the game.
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Nicholas Gauthier
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I agree. The choice is to get rid of the Saboteur at the cost of the other guy getting the 2 VP, or leaving him alone to do his dirty work!
 
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Jeff Dunford
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fograsher wrote:
Pardek is played on an opponent's ship. That ship may not make a combat action unless said opponent discards Pardek as an interrupt, which gives the Romulan player 2VP. That is the intent of the card. Just playing Pardek from your hand for 2VP requires no effort which is different than any other form of earning VP in the game.


I think this is the intent of the card, but nothing prevents the Romulan player from playing Pardek as an Interrupt to get 2 VP immediately.

To answer the OP's question, though, I can imagine times when I might want to play Pardek as a Saboteur. Imagine that the Negh'Var is in a zone (or within striking distance) of some weak ships, and the Klingon player has a face-up Combat mission that grants VPs for destroying enemy ships and/or doing 2 damage in a single combat. It's possible that if the Negh'Var is successful in destroying one of those ships on the Klingon player's turn, the Klingons will reach the VP goal and win the game. I could play Pardek on the Klingon ship, forcing the Klingon player to decide between giving me 2 VP to attack with the Negh'Var or using a smaller ship to attck (or perhaps to transport Pardek from one ship to another - which would waste the Negh'Var's action for the turn). With the game on the line, the Klingon player should give me the 2 VP and continue with Plan A... but it might make the Klingon hesitate - especially if he's concerned that I might have a face-down Espionage mission that would be completed if he transported or executed Pardek.

Simpler example: There's a mission that grants 2 VPs for placing a Saboteur on an enemy ship. That grants 2 VPs now, and there's a good chance the Klingon will give you another 2 VPs when he removes Pardek from the Negh'Var (and if he doesn't, you've removed a major threat from the game).
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Roy Stephens
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I think you guys have interpreted the card wrong...

As a Saboteur crew member, Pardek prevents an opposing ship from initiating a combat. You put him on your enemy's most dangerous ship. He is very effective against Klingons. Since a large amount of their missions involve combat, you have taken 1/3 (generally, in a 10 vp game) of their fleet out of the hunt... especially crippling as an early game move.

The Interrupt ability can be played from hand OR while in play, however, the wording is specific: The player who PLAYED this card gets 2 VP. Not the player who has him aboard their ship. This means that not only does the Romulan player get to neuter an enemy ship, but, at any point in the game (usually as a late game push to win) he can Interrupt and discard Pardek for the 2 VP.

The only way the Sabotaged player can get rid of Pardek is (usually) through encounters.

The way to look at Saboteur cards is the "Crew" ability is their cover... the Interrupt (which can only be activated by the Romulan that put the Saboteur on the ship, NOT the player controlling the ship) is the "Sabotage" the sleeper agent does when commanded by the High Command. Think of it as a suicide mission. The saboteur helps out the ship he is on to maintain his cover (even Pardek... he is an ambassador), but when the time comes, he does his dirty work and then takes his cyanide pill.
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Eric Foldenauer
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When a saboteur is in play, The Romulan player can only activate an ability of that saboteur that is prefaced with the "(espionage)" ops/combat ability. The rules specifically state that non-espionage abilities can only be activated by the player controlling the ship the saboteur crew is on to force that crew card to be discarded, often to negative effect to the player of the controlling ship.
 
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Paul DeStefano
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fograsher wrote:
When a saboteur is in play, The Romulan player can only activate an ability of that saboteur that is prefaced with the "(espionage)" ops/combat ability. The rules specifically state that non-espionage abilities can only be activated by the player controlling the ship the saboteur crew is on to force that crew card to be discarded, often to negative effect to the player of the controlling ship.


That's why this card specifically has the excepts (remember card rules always overpower book rules) saying the player who played the card may execute it.
 
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Eric Foldenauer
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Geosphere wrote:
fograsher wrote:
When a saboteur is in play, The Romulan player can only activate an ability of that saboteur that is prefaced with the "(espionage)" ops/combat ability. The rules specifically state that non-espionage abilities can only be activated by the player controlling the ship the saboteur crew is on to force that crew card to be discarded, often to negative effect to the player of the controlling ship.


That's why this card specifically has the excepts (remember card rules always overpower book rules) saying the player who played the card may execute it.


Well, then I am confused, Paul. The card doesn't state anything about the player who played the card getting to execute it, just that when Pardek's Ops ability is used, the player who played the card will receive 2VPs.

TribbleOfBorg wrote:
Pardek wrote:
INTERRUPT: The player who played this card gets 2 Victory Points.
SABOTEUR: This ship may not initiate combat.
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Paul DeStefano
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Can someone show a picture of the card? It wasn't any confusion at all in the playtest version.
 
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mateenyweeny
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The way I read it is that the ship is crippled offensively unless they concede 2 VP to the Romulans. It makes more sense this way rather than the Romulan player deciding when the card is discarded and the 2VP are awarded.
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Ilias Sellountos
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Geosphere wrote:
fograsher wrote:
When a saboteur is in play, The Romulan player can only activate an ability of that saboteur that is prefaced with the "(espionage)" ops/combat ability. The rules specifically state that non-espionage abilities can only be activated by the player controlling the ship the saboteur crew is on to force that crew card to be discarded, often to negative effect to the player of the controlling ship.


That's why this card specifically has the excepts (remember card rules always overpower book rules) saying the player who played the card may execute it.


That is not what the card says. It says the player who played the card gets the VP when the interrupt ability is executed (by the ship's owner as per the rules). If you simply follow the rules for crew cards and espionage there is no confusion:

- The card is a crew card, so it must be assigned to a ship BEFORE it can be used, so the Romulan player cannot just discard it for the VP.

- Once assigned to a ship the Romulan player may use it's Espionage ability to prevent the ship from attacking and the SHIP's OWNER can DISCARD the crew card to use it's interrupt ability that gives the Romulan player 2 VPs.

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Eric Foldenauer
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Shemar wrote:
Once assigned to a ship the Romulan player may use it's Espionage ability to prevent the ship from attacking
As I understand the rules, the ship cannot attack period. This is not an espionage ops/combat ability; it is the crew function of Pardek. Once Pardek is on a ship, that ship can no longer attack until the crew card is no longer on that ship.

Paul: I will try to scan in a copy of the card tonight for you if nobody else beats me to it, but I did compare the OP's quotation of the card text to the card itself back when this thread started. The quoted text is precisely what is written on the card.
 
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Jeff Dunford
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Shemar wrote:
Geosphere wrote:
fograsher wrote:
When a saboteur is in play, The Romulan player can only activate an ability of that saboteur that is prefaced with the "(espionage)" ops/combat ability. The rules specifically state that non-espionage abilities can only be activated by the player controlling the ship the saboteur crew is on to force that crew card to be discarded, often to negative effect to the player of the controlling ship.


That's why this card specifically has the excepts (remember card rules always overpower book rules) saying the player who played the card may execute it.


That is not what the card says. It says the player who played the card gets the VP when the interrupt ability is executed (by the ship's owner as per the rules). If you simply follow the rules for crew cards and espionage there is no confusion:

I was about to agree with you until I got to this part:
Shemar wrote:

- The card is a crew card, so it must be assigned to a ship BEFORE it can be used, so the Romulan player cannot just discard it for the VP.

Why can't you play a Crew card from your hand for its Ops or Combat effect? You could do so in the base game (although usually you'd prefer to use it as a crew card and could still discard (or trash) it to use its combat or ops effect later). My understanding is that only an "Espionage" card (which by definition is also a Crew [Saboteur] card) can only be played as an Espionage when assigned to a ship, and only by the player who played the card. However, Pardek doesn't have an Espionage effect, so this discussion doesn't really matter.

Shemar wrote:
- Once assigned to a ship the Romulan player may use it's Espionage Saboteur ability to prevent the ship from attacking and the SHIP's OWNER can DISCARD the crew card to use it's (non-espionage) interrupt ability that gives the Romulan player 2 VPs.


I agree with this part, with one correction (and a clarification).
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Eric B.
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iNano78 wrote:

Shemar wrote:

- The card is a crew card, so it must be assigned to a ship BEFORE it can be used, so the Romulan player cannot just discard it for the VP.

Why can't you play a Crew card from your hand for its Ops or Combat effect? You could do so in the base game (although usually you'd prefer to use it as a crew card and could still discard (or trash) it to use its combat or ops effect later). My understanding is that only an "Espionage" card (which by definition is also a Crew [Saboteur] card) can only be played as an Espionage when assigned to a ship, and only by the player who played the card. However, Pardek doesn't have an Espionage effect, so this discussion doesn't really matter.


Agree, every other crew card can be played AS an OPs or AS a COMBAT card, if the card has those options (without having to be attached as a crew first).

As it's written (the OP's quote is verbatim of everything on the card) the Romulan player can just play Pardek as an OPs and gain two VP, making it the most powerful card in the game. Obviously, the card's intent is that the OP ability can only be executed by the opponent who controls the ship Pardek has been assigned to as a Saboteur, but there's nothing on the card that indicates such a restriction.


The Errata/FAQ for just Romulan crew cards is going to need to be substantially longer than the double-sided rules insert with the expansion, methinks.

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Roy Stephens
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Boy, did i get the Saboteur wrong. Please disregard most of my previous comment. For whatever reason, I treated ALL saboteur's Interrupt abilities as being Espionage (ie, triggered by the placer of the saboteur, not the player whose ship the saboteur is on) when in fact, not ALL the saboteurs have the "Espionage" trait on their Interrupts. My bad. In my defense, i haven't played ST:FC with the Romulans more than 2 or 3 times and i think a saboteur has been placed maybe twice. shake
 
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Paul DeStefano
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I HAVE THE ANSWER FROM DESIGNER MIKE ELLIOT.

Quote:
The player owning the ship has the option to use the ability. If they do, you gain the 2 VP. It is a way for the opponent to remove a sabateur at a cost.
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Eric B.
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Geosphere wrote:
I HAVE THE ANSWER FROM DESIGNER MIKE ELLIOT.

Quote:
The player owning the ship has the option to use the ability. If they do, you gain the 2 VP. It is a way for the opponent to remove a sabateur at a cost.


Obviously the intent of the card, but it was misprinted (or incorrectly written), yes? Or am I overlooking some rule(s) about the OPS and COMBAT effects of cards which are Crew:Saboteur?
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It seems fairly obvious what the intent is with this card, it's just that unfortunately the rules do leave a small ambiguity.

Unless there are any cards where it would not make sense to do so, I'm just gonna play that all saboteurs must be assigned to a ship before their effect can be activated. The only difference between espionage and ops would then be which player is able to use the effect.
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Paul DeStefano
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RogueThirteen wrote:
Geosphere wrote:
I HAVE THE ANSWER FROM DESIGNER MIKE ELLIOT.

Quote:
The player owning the ship has the option to use the ability. If they do, you gain the 2 VP. It is a way for the opponent to remove a sabateur at a cost.


Obviously the intent of the card, but it was misprinted (or incorrectly written), yes? Or am I overlooking some rule(s) about the OPS and COMBAT effects of cards which are Crew:Saboteur?


I don't think it is clearly ruled. When we tested it, we already had that answer from Mike. I was under the assumption that the final wording would clear things up, since we were as confused as you guys.
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Roy Stephens
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RogueThirteen wrote:

Obviously the intent of the card, but it was misprinted (or incorrectly written), yes? Or am I overlooking some rule(s) about the OPS and COMBAT effects of cards which are Crew:Saboteur?



You might be, just like i was. Re-read the rulesheet. it is very specific about how/when/by whom a Saboteur's Interrupt can be used. I completely missed the second part (the part that covers Saboteurs that DON'T have Espionage Interrupts).
 
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D Snow
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hockeyjedi wrote:
RogueThirteen wrote:

Obviously the intent of the card, but it was misprinted (or incorrectly written), yes? Or am I overlooking some rule(s) about the OPS and COMBAT effects of cards which are Crew:Saboteur?



You might be, just like i was. Re-read the rulesheet. it is very specific about how/when/by whom a Saboteur's Interrupt can be used. I completely missed the second part (the part that covers Saboteurs that DON'T have Espionage Interrupts).


That is where the ambiguity lies. The rules state that espionage abilities may not be played out of hand, however it does not specify that for other saboteur abilities.

That being said, it seems pretty clear from the text and the cards that was the intent.
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Don Frew
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I think people are getting hung up by the idea of "Espionage". Pardek does not have an "Espionage" ability, he just has a Saboteur ability and an Interrupt ability.

The Saboteur ability means that Pardek is played on another player's ship. While assigned to that ship, that ship may not initiate combat. As already noted this can be a crippling blow to a Klingon ship that needs to initiate combat to complete Missions.

Pardek's Interrupt ability is covered in the rules at the top left of page 2:
"On the other hand, a Saboteur with a non-Espionage Combat or Action ability may indeed be discarded by the player to whose ship the saboteur is assigned - such saboteurs usually have negative crew effects and even more negative Action or Combat effects a player can suffer voluntarily in order to get rid of the enemy agent once and for all."
In other words, the owner of the ship to which Pardek is assigned can voluntarily remove this annoying Romulan agent from his ship IF he willing to give the Romulan player 2 VP to do so. That he can do this as an Interrupt means doesn't have to use an Action to do it. THAT part of the card is also tripping things up, since an Interrupt is not an "Action ability".

At any rate, I think this is pretty clearly the intent under the rules.

Don
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Mercutio Wycliffe
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The point of the question is why would you NOT simply play the INTERRUPT and take 2 VP? If handcuffing a ship is truly more to your advantage, your opponent will see right through that and give you the VP anyway, so the end result is the same as if you played it from hand. So far, the best answer is:

iNano78 wrote:
Simpler example: There's a mission that grants 2 VPs for placing a Saboteur on an enemy ship. That grants 2 VPs now, and there's a good chance the Klingon will give you another 2 VPs when he removes Pardek from the Negh'Var (and if he doesn't, you've removed a major threat from the game).


EDIT: If it is only meant to be playable as Crew before the OPS ability can be activated, it should have been written in, or better yet, just make it an extension of the Crew text (similar to Data).

"This ship's controller may discard this card..."
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