Recommend
7 
 Thumb up
 Hide
41 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Archipelago» Forums » General

Subject: To all of you who gave Archipelago a high rating - what am I missing? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Martin Sjöstrand
Sweden
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
To all of you who gave Archipelago a high rating - what am I missing?

I really want to enjoy this game, but it seems to lack in so many areas in my personal opinion, to the point that I find it broken.

Archipelago is a semi-cooperative game. In theory that sounds really interesting but in practice not so much. The rules states that if the game ends in any other way than by the natives declaration of independance everybody wins. If the natives does declare independance then the Separatist alone wins the game. Well, that means that if you get the Separatist objective card then you have automatically won. Fun, huh?

But really, who am I kidding? Of course no one cares about that (that rule is still odd though). All that matters is the grand winner. And here's where the real problem comes in to play. You don't really want to cooperate since by cooperating you will be giving the grand winner price to somebody else (unless people pay you alot to cooperate). Of course there is kind of a solution to that - the benefactor card (the benefactor variant is a must to be able to play the game at all), but not even that will always help.

Another rule I find problematic is the betting for the player order. Hidden betting where all the money goes to the bank that all the players used for betting, and if you tie you have to bet again where chances are that the player order will stay the same anyway even though the person in the first place might not even have spent a single coin to defend his or her spot.

The end scoring is too random and the benefactor variant won't be enough if you want to counter some of its randomness.

Ok then we got the rulebook. Boy is it lacking in various areas. Does anywone really know the exact rules for migration in every case scenario? Where is the list of the trend cards? What about the character and progress cards? Does using the cards take an action? Can they be part of an action? Well, the rules sure don't say anything about that. If I have two or more ports for instance and activate one by spending a coin how do I know which one I have activated (i.e. which meeple is engaged)? This is just a few of the things the rules doesn't cover - there's alot of others as well. I know some of these questions has been answered here on BGG and in FAQ's but some hasn't and either way they should have been in the rulebook in the first place.

There are other small irritating rules and design flaws with the game as well but the ones I have brought up are the ones that really breaks the game for me.

As I said I want to enjoy this game so I ask you that gave Archipelago a high rating (especially you that gave the game a 10 and don't see any issues with the game at all), what am I missing?

Thanks for taking the time to answer.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Don D.
United States
Miami
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I find it very interesting. I've played three times and cannot decide if I like it or not, but continue to find it interesting and am leaning towards saying I like it. I have some concerns with end game scoring and am going to use a variant I mentioned in another thread that the designer has sort of endorsed as something that would work.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sky Zero
United States
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Too many rules...it has everything AND the kitchen sink.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jack Francisco
United States
Cumberland
Rhode Island
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Wow, I'm starting to feel better that I canceled my order of this after I read that there might be some component issues.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Corbett
Canada
Calgary
Alberta
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
senorcoo wrote:
Wow, I'm starting to feel better that I canceled my order of this after I read that there might be some component issues.


You seem to be jumping the gun. Just because a few people have component issues you cancel. The company usually makes it right anyways and it is probably a really small fraction of the games that have an issue.

If someone mentioned they don't like the game it doesn't mean you won't.

3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jack Francisco
United States
Cumberland
Rhode Island
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Oh, I understand that I may have jumped the gun canceling, but I am SO sick of component errors/inconsistencies, that I am taking a stand. Touch of Evil, Last Night on Earth, 7 wonders, etc.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sky Zero
United States
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
senorcoo wrote:
Oh, I understand that I may have jumped the gun canceling, but I am SO sick of component errors/inconsistencies, that I am taking a stand. Touch of Evil, Last Night on Earth, 7 wonders, etc.


It seems the last half dozen games I've bought have had serious issues as well. It's as if they're just rushing crap out the door to get it out. I'm still waiting on missing and replacement components from a few different vendors as it stands today.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Markus
Finland
Helsinki
Uusimaa
flag msg tools
You don't need any more.
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Marty78 wrote:
To all of you who gave Archipelago a high rating - what am I missing?


You're probably missing nothing. You already know what you like and what you don't and you've already identified why you dislike Archipelago in your post. Why spend time trying to like it when there are so many good games out there you could be playing instead?
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Corbett
Canada
Calgary
Alberta
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I agree, i'm so tired of contacting customer service every second game I buy. I'm still waiting for a part for Eclipse as we speak.

I have bought Archipelago but it's waiting for Christmas. Hopefully it's complete and fun.

Also with a growing game collection I try to be selective to avoid games I might dislike but I don't take a few posters opinion to heart. I'll take a guess and say you were on the fence about this game to begin with

Edit:I'm getting to the point unfortunately that i'm suprised when I have a game without missing components.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
SebZ
Germany
Heidelberg
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Ok Marty, I am one of the guys that gave Archipelago a 10, so i try to point out what I like in this game. I try to answer some of your questions as well.

I like Archipelago because it simply looks very good. Every tile is unique and everywhere is something going on. It´s just awesome. Some things are a bit irritating ("is that a hut?") and some things are a bit small ("Wait, where did I put my market...?"), but still it looks awesome and it just transports that carribean feeling!

I like the stories that this game tells. Every game is unique and every game fits the theme. You will find that game where the villagers demand fish and go rampaging about it. And the game where you are the big trader who can afford to get the assistance of the pope and of the king and still be the one to have the most money in the end... almost, because your opponent has 5 more now!

I like the Euro feeling while playing this stuff. It´s a complex game and furthermore you get those things... thats great.

I like Archipelago because it has this settlers aspect, but in a Gamer´s Game. You can trade resources, interact, bid with the players to get resources.

This game is just fun for me. I played 5 2-Player Games up to now, 1 3-P and 1 4-P. Some players did not like this game and some did complain, and the complaints did fit those you gave.

So this game might not be for everyone, but some might also miss a really good game. I still like it. I gave my rating not because I was shure this was one of the 3 best games ever made. I gave it bacause I really had the feeling I wanted to play it more than any of the other at the moment, and that still is right.

So to your issiues:
You win when you have the most points! You lose if rebellion reaches the global population... unless you have a separatist! What´s odd here?
Sometimes its a bit close, but it is still fun. Too many ties for me, but its ok, just know that money is always important. I dont think it is random. You can really guess the goals of the other players often. And you can even conclude on their game end condition.
And it is like real life: You cooperate when it is at use for you!

Betting is weard, but it is fun: I can drive my fiancee nuts by just raising my hand and smiling every beginning of the round! Just try. Every position has its ups and its downs, not always the starting player who wins (though it is a very good position, with all the goods you can use during a crisis, and all the gifts ("can you make me second if i give you 2f?"))

Well, rule book... I like it. Reading it online made me preorder the game. I like it. Hm, dont know, guess my arguments wont suffice here...

Rules:
Migration: You may move every settler, if not used already this round. You can use your ships as "Ferries" for one sea tile/sea gap, even before or after moving them.
What do you need a list of trend cards for?
Actions: When it is your turn, you can use a wheel action and use a port/market and use a card, just as you want.
Port usage: You could just say "i use this port now." Or you allow everyone to decide later when it is needed.

Ok, long text, late hour. Sorry.
Hope I have answered some of your questions?
There is one advice I want to give you. Some video reviewers pointed this out as well. Go slow with this gem and let it play you, it is different than some other games. Learning is harder. (I really hope this that the video Ludically promised in September is ready soon.) Try to see the Beauty of the Board and the Stories that it tells. And try to find your way of winning in this system. Hopefully it is fun to you and you can enjoy. And if not... enjoy some others. Your 9s are really nice games (Feld, : Luna, Burgund, Trajan)

Ok, two things for the designer:
-How long will it take to finish the explanation video in English? I really wait for this for 2 month. It would be very nice to use it soon for teaching!
-When will the solo expansion be available in Germany? I can already order it in France and in Belgium, but i could not find it in Germany yet! Really looking forward to that!

Ok, hope this helped. If not feel free to ask more questions...
29 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
M. S.
Germany
Illerkirchberg
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Braz wrote:
[q="Marty78"] Well, that means that if you get the Separatist objective card then you have automatically won. Fun, huh?


Yep, it`s fun! You have won in this specific case. Semi-cooperative means, that as a separatist you`re playing against the whole group..and they are able to comunicate with each other and make deals....so automatically won? I highly doubt about that. Fun is it in the same way like playing "dark age of camelot" and in the case of the traitor: You never can be for sure that someone is playing against the whole group....

Marty78 wrote:

But really, who am I kidding? Of course no one cares about that (that rule is still odd though). All that matters is the grand winner. And here's where the real problem comes in to play. You don't really want to cooperate since by cooperating you will be giving the grand winner price to somebody else (unless people pay you alot to cooperate).


Of course: No one wants to deal with the others BUT often you just have todo it....sometimes it`s realy getting hard, when the game is going to win against the group and in this case you have to cooperate for sure otherwise everybody is loosing.You even have to cooperate more when there is a separatist in the group....


Marty78 wrote:

The end scoring is too random and the benefactor variant won't be enough if you want to counter some of its randomness.


In one variant that is described at the end, the ending conditions and victory point conditions are revealed for everybody -> so I don`t understand your point of randomnes -> everything is open and should be clear for everyone in this specific variant/case

Marty78 wrote:

As I said I want to enjoy this game so I ask you that gave Archipelago a high rating (especially you that gave the game a 10 and don't see any issues with the game at all), what am I missing?


I love this game since there is a lot going on in the game. There is a lot of variety in every game play and every game feels different, since:

1) you always get different island tiles which lead subsequently to different strategies
2) in every game you have different end- and victory conditions
3) the strategy and subjective game feeling is totaly different, when playing as a separatist on the other hand the group never can be for sure that there is a separatist participating in the game
4) the market situation is always differrent, depending on the people playing with the game and depending on the overall situation on the island tiles
5) the end condition are not open when playing the base game and so you know, that there should be the time right now for somebody to finalize the game, but you`ll never know.....this leads to a strong tention in the game
6) there is a lot going on in the game and you have never enough actions to do whatever you want to do so you have to choose and build up your own strategy
7) Different technology cards lead to different strategies

So overall the game is having a lot of potential in it that will last for a long time, since every game play feels different.

..but I will make it short for you: Games are always a matter of taste.
You don`t like it -> so sell it
I love it -> I will keep it


By the way: I gave the game a 10 out of 10.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt Shinners
United States
New York
New York
flag msg tools
Avatar
Braz wrote:
so automatically won? I highly doubt about that.


You missed his point.

His point is that the Separatist will win no matter what happens on the island. The game either ends with a Rebellion, in which case the Separatist wins, or it ends when an End-of-Game condition is triggered, in which case all players win, including the Separatist. In short, since there are only two possible outcomes and in both the Separatist is considered the winner, the person who drew the Separatist card will win no matter what.

This does, however, ignore the 'grand winner' who is the person with the most points, and I think that's who most people consider the actual winner of the game, not the entire group of players should they avoid rebellion.

As to the player dilemma, this game really requires you to almost blackmail other players into playing to avoid the Rebellion. Form a block that won't trade with the guy who's going solo, stuff like that.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rob Steward
United States
flag msg tools
designer
Fretboard Gamer
badge
p/g
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I originally gave it a 9 after having a couple really enjoyable sessions.

Slowly, I began to feel exactly as you about the endgame. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's "broken", but I certainly found it lacking... maybe "flawed" would best describe my feeling.

But there's so much in the game that really does work, and the mechanics are all enjoyable to do. (Basically, the game is fun to play with.)

So, my group and I (my family) started having multiple discussions about how we might make the endgame as much fun as playing the game. In the process, we also tweaked a few other things we didn't like so much.

It's all here, for the curious:

Archipelago Variant Rules - Major Revamp
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ben
United States
Ann Arbor
Michigan
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I rate the game a 9. It is one of my favorite games from this year's Essen (potentially my favorite, though currently Terra Mystica and The Great Zimbabwe provide tough competition).

Although I disagree with a lot of what you wrote, I'm not going to spend a considerable amount of time debating your points because it seems like you are unlikely to be persuaded.

For example, if you think "the end scoring is too random," there is nothing I can say to change your mind. I strongly disagree (to begin with, "random" is simply incorrect, since the end game scoring options are fixed at the beginning of the game), but that's me. What might be a tolerable amount of uncertainty might be too much uncertainty for you.

If you don't like the deduction involved in playing well, move on to another game. If you don't understand how to use the semi-cooperative elements to produce an engaging game experience, move on to another game. It's okay not to like everything.

From my perspective, it is one of the most unique, unusual, and inspiring game designs I've ever encountered. It has changed the way I think about what greatness in a game looks like. But no game is for everyone. And that's okay.
15 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clyde W
United States
Washington
Dist of Columbia
flag msg tools
Red Team
badge
#YOLO
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I like any game where I can bluff and deduce my way to a win. Archipelago is one of the few Euros that allows me this, so, yes, I like it.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jimmy Okolica
United States
Washington Township
Ohio
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
chally wrote:
I rate the game a 9. It is one of my favorite games from this year's Essen (potentially my favorite, though currently Terra Mystica and The Great Zimbabwe provide tough competition).

Although I disagree with a lot of what you wrote, I'm not going to spend a considerable amount of time debating your points because it seems like you are unlikely to be persuaded.

For example, if you think "the end scoring is too random," there is nothing I can say to change your mind. I strongly disagree (to begin with, "random" is simply incorrect, since the end game scoring options are fixed at the beginning of the game), but that's me. What might be a tolerable amount of uncertainty might be too much uncertainty for you.

If you don't like the deduction involved in playing well, move on to another game. If you don't understand how to use the semi-cooperative elements to produce an engaging game experience, move on to another game. It's okay not to like everything.

From my perspective, it is one of the most unique, unusual, and inspiring game designs I've ever encountered. It has changed the way I think about what greatness in a game looks like. But no game is for everyone. And that's okay.


I would add that one of the posted variants says to play with the end game cards open. That should solve the "randomness" problem as well.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
M. S.
Germany
Illerkirchberg
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
MattShinners wrote:
Braz wrote:
so automatically won? I highly doubt about that.


You missed his point.

His point is that the Separatist will win no matter what happens on the island. .


thumbsup
Correct! Thnx for the explanation. In fact I missed his point based on the fact that I always only count the "grand winner"...but you`re absolutley right.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Crovax dakka
msg tools
I just got the game a few days ago, and have yet to play it. But i'm pretty sure I will like it, because I love games where you can try to influence other players actions and have to negotiate a lot. Influencing other players moves and subtly control the game so you increase your chances to win? I'm sold.

It keeps the game fresh and won't end up with meta-strategy (as fast). Some other games I play where all conditions are crystal clear end up in some people going for the X method to win, others going for the Y method to win etc every single game.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jack Francisco
United States
Cumberland
Rhode Island
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
clydeiii wrote:
I like any game where I can bluff and deduce my way to a win.


Getting gladder all the time that I canceled this.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Reid
United States
Brooklyn
New York
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Butterfly0038 wrote:
I would add that one of the posted variants says to play with the end game cards open. That should solve the "randomness" problem as well.


True enough, it's an official variant in the rulebook. However, I wouldn't get the game to play it exclusively that way, after the designer posted the following comment:

Chris Boelinger wrote:
The unknown ending of the game is part of what this semi cooperative game requires in order to function.
Once you will have played many games you will understand that known end condition is a breaker to the game.


http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/10612608#10612608

So it sounds like the official variant might be fine for learning the game, and for casual players of it, but probably won't work long term for a serious group.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clyde W
United States
Washington
Dist of Columbia
flag msg tools
Red Team
badge
#YOLO
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
senorcoo wrote:
clydeiii wrote:
I like any game where I can bluff and deduce my way to a win.


Getting gladder all the time that I canceled this.
I like Trajan too! I like many types of games. Deduction, however, is sorely represented in Euros, as is bluffing, so Archipelago feels quite refreshing.

Are all your games variants on the same thing?
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jack Francisco
United States
Cumberland
Rhode Island
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Not at all. I just find that these two elements just don't appeal to me. About the only deduction games that I've ever really liked are Scotland Yard (when I was 12) and BSG Express (though I'd probably like BSG as well).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clyde W
United States
Washington
Dist of Columbia
flag msg tools
Red Team
badge
#YOLO
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
You rate Martin Wallace's Discworld game an 8. Do you consider that a bluffing deduction game? If so, Archipelago has a very very similar feel.

See also: deduction in Troyes.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sal A Mander
msg tools
I am not sure where he negativity is coming from, but here is why I like the game a whole lot.

1) Replayability: with a random map and the fact that each Ayer has a different ending condition and you can dictate the length of the game.

2) Components: beautiful, there is no other way to say it. However the insert is a problem. There other threads that address this.

3) Aspects: this game is a conglomeration of some of my favorite aspects. Bidding for position ala Railroad Tycoon. Resource management ( too many games to mention). Markets for selling a me buying goods. And several others.
There is something for everyone in this game. Our group has a lot of different personalities, each having a different favorite game. This is one of the few that I can sell to a lot of people on just by simply Leto g them know that one of or several of their favorite gaming aspects are in this game. How many games can you say that about?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jack Francisco
United States
Cumberland
Rhode Island
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
clydeiii wrote:
You rate Martin Wallace's Discworld game an 8. Do you consider that a bluffing deduction game? If so, Archipelago has a very very similar feel.

See also: deduction in Troyes.


There is so much other excellence going on in those, that the little bit of deduction doesn't bother me. Discworld is outright chaos and well before the time you get to the end of the game in Troyes, you usually know what people's personality card is without having to deduce it. I'm sure this is a good game, just not one that's for me, especially with Clash of Cultures coming soon!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.