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Axis Empires: Totaler Krieg!» Forums » Rules

Subject: Retreating and ranged support HQ rss

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Ben Vincent
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I'm working through the Barbarossa training scenario and after playing through the first turn noticed this rule under Retreat Restriction:

Quote:
A force cannot Retreat if it includes an HQ unit (including one providing Ranged Support) that participated in the combat.
Let me establish a hypothetical situation for a few related questions:

A single 2 step Soviet unit with a valid retreat path is attacked by a German stack. Both the Germans and Soviets support the attack with ranged HQ support from 2 hexes away.

1) if the combat results in a Defender Retreat result, is the Soviet infantry unit stuck in place because of the ranged HQ support (suffering involuntary conversion)?

OR

2) does this mean that the Soviet infantry can retreat, but if it retreats into the HQ hex it cannot retreat any farther?

3) If (1) is true, then does this also mean that on a combat result of Exchange, the attacker cannot choose to retreat if a HQ provided ranged support?

Related:

Quote:
A faction satisfies Attrition results by eliminating steps from any of its ground units involved in that combat (including an HQ unit providing Ranged Support
4) if defender losses exceed the number of defending steps in the hex attacked (plus any units swept up in retreat), are the additional attrition steps applied to the HQ that provided ranged support?

For example, let's say the combat result was Dr2 0/2, and the defending unit did not have a valid retreat path due to enemy aircraft and/or EZOC. Does the HQ that provided ranged support from 2 hexes away suffer the other 2 step losses?

 
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Mike Haggett
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1) is correct, as is 3)

4) that is correct, assuming the defending units had 2 steps. You will need to be careful where you commit your HQs.
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Jeremy Fridy
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1 and 4.

Using an HQ represents a major committing of reserves, local air support, artillery, and more. It also means you are not backing down, so no retreating. Also in the 1st edition the HQ could take hits, allowing you to keep troops on the front line. Also since HQs in home territory could be used to place reinforcements, you could bleed off a step of a 3 step HQ and then rebuild the HQ to full with reinforcements.

The Germans have good HQs, the Soviets not so much. BUT in a few years the soviets have tons of HQs, and can often use several in an area for attacks, keeping the Germans off balance.
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Mike Haggett
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Keep in mind, one HQ per attack--Jeremy means you can make multiple attacks, forcing the Germans to choose which one to use their HQ to defend against.

 
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Ben Vincent
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Another ranged support question:

Can an HQ provide ranged support multiple times per turn, if each battle occurs in a different combat segment? In other words, can the same HQ provide combat support to a battle during blitz combat, and then support another battle in the regular combat phase?

I think the answer is yes, but it isn't super clear in the rules.

Also, does it make any difference in the HQ is on the attacking or defending side?
 
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Jakub Kircun
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Quote:
can the same HQ provide combat support to a battle during blitz combat, and then support another battle in the regular combat phase?
Yes

Quote:
does it make any difference in the HQ is on the attacking or defending side?
Nope
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Ben Vincent
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One more related question:

An infantry unit makes an attack and gets an AD or EX result. The attacking infantry unit is stacked with an HQ that did not participate in the battle. Can the infantry unit retreat out of the hex?

I think the answer is no, the HQ forces them to take a step loss, even though the HQ didn't participate.
 
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Mike Haggett
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You are correct, the answer is no--adverse results apply to the hex, not just the units that took part in an attack.
 
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Uwe A. Redjac
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Feralkoala wrote:
You are correct, the answer is no--adverse results apply to the hex, not just the units that took part in an attack.
That is definitely not correct.

Check again 4.2.4:
"Important: Only units involved in a specific combat are affected by its results." The example following then clearly states that any unit kept out of an attack suffers nothing.

This is further backed up by 4.2.5.2
"A force can not retreat if it includes an HQ unit that participated in the attack."

Thus: If the HQ did not participate it is not effectd by the Ad or Ex result and stays where it is while the attacking unit must retreat (if it can't find another way for Retreat Conversion).
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Mike Haggett
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blush
Uwe is correct, apologies for misleading you.
 
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Uwe A. Redjac
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Follow up Question
Now my own question to this general topic:

I am the defender and got a two step infantry in a city and a two step HQ providing ranged support. I really want to keep the city hex, because I just renamed it Uwegrad the other week and seriously ... Feralkoalaburg? Sounds like an Euro, over my dead body please.

But I suffer a Dr3 result

I do not have to retreat as I got an HQ providing ranged support. So as my first Dr result I reduce my unit in the infantry in the city to 1 step.

I still do not have to retreat as I still got my HQ providing ranged support. As I really want to hold the city, I now dissolve my HQ and replace it with a 1 step infantry unit for the second Dr result.

What can I do for the third Dr result? I know I still may use Retreat Conversion as I am in a City. But am I allowed to apply this loss to the infantry step, which took the place of my HQ? Or does that step count as "not involved in the attack" and I thus have to apply the last Dr to my step in the city?

I'd say it counts as involved (even if only by replacing a unit that participated) but again 'involved' is a pretty wide term and can mean anything. Admittedly: The rules do not say 'participated' here so a wider interpretation of 'involved' may be okay.

Still: If anyone has a clearer rule reference here I am happy to read it.


P.S.: I know I can not hold the city at all if a Blitz marker were on top of it. Once the HQ suffers its first loss, I must retreat and can't convert anymore. Best option may then be to just apply the first step loss to the HQ and then retreat two hexes out of my city.
 
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Ben Vincent
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Quote:
4.2.6 Attrition

A faction satisfies Attrition results by eliminating steps from any of its ground units involved in that combat (including an HQ unit providing Ranged Support).

To do so, the faction declares which unit will suffer a step loss and reduces its step value by one. The faction continues to eliminate steps in this fashion until the Attrition result is fully satisfied or all of its units that took part in that combat are eliminated.
I would say that the remnants of the HQ are still part of the defending force and could be taken as a step loss.

My logic is that when you reduce any other unit from multistep to single step, that single step unit would still be considered to have taken part in the combat.
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Mike Haggett
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This seems to be covered in the example of play on p. 31--breaking down the HQ reduces the defending force to just the units in the attacked hex--when the HQ breaks down, the breakdown step is not required to retreat. Granted, the terrain in that example is not a city, but I'm not sure why the break-down step would be susceptible to retreat conversion, but not having to retreat.
 
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Uwe A. Redjac
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Feralkoala wrote:
This seems to be covered in the example of play on p. 31--breaking down the HQ reduces the defending force to just the units in the attacked hex--when the HQ breaks down, the breakdown step is not required to retreat.
Sorry but Retreat always only applies to the units in the hex attacked:

4.2.4.1 Retreat results
"Ex: ... all ground units in the defending hex must Retreat one hex ..." "Dr1, Dr2, Dr3: ... all units in the defending hex must Retreat the indicated number of hexes."

Though the above is limited by the exception of 4.2.4
"Only units involved in a specific combat are affected by its result."

Admittedly: 4.2.4.1 would be a bit clearer if it referred to "all ground units in the defending hex participating in the combat" instead of only "all ground units" but I think it is still pretty clear is that 4.2.4 superceedes 4.2.4.1.

SabreRedleg wrote:
My logic is that when you reduce any other unit from multistep to single step, that single step unit would still be considered to have taken part in the combat.
True, did not think of that. It would really be odd if units were treated differently just because of how they are printed. And as 'involved' is a wider term than 'participated' I guess units used to replace perticipating units are covered too.
 
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Mike Haggett
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I agree that retreat applies to units in the hex that is attacked--that's what the example says.

What I don't agree with is the logic that says that that breakdown is subject to retreat conversion--my contention is that since the breakdown unit is not subject to the retreat provisions in 4.2.4.1, then it cannot be used to fulfill a step loss from Voluntary Retreat Conversion. i.e., that 4.2.4 is not interpreted as you suggest.





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Ben Vincent
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I had overlooked the example. I think Mike is right. After all:

Quote:
While reading the rules, do not infer or imagine more to a rule than is stated in it. When in doubt, interpret strictly.
Once the HQ is removed and replaced with an infantry step, it is no longer part of the battle.

If you really want to hold Uwegrad, put you HQ there.
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Uwe A. Redjac
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Definition of 'involved'
Quote:
While reading the rules, do not infer or imagine more to a rule than is stated in it. When in doubt, interpret strictly.
The problem here is: what does 'involved' mean, strictly spoken? Stricly spoken you can argue they are involved and exculding them would infer something into the rule. 'Involved' is a very waxy term, which makes a bit hard to say what it actually means.

The only useful references I could find were:

- 4.2.4 "Only units involved in a specific combat are affected by its results." which is the rule we try to read correctly right now.
- 4.2.1 "All units in the attacked hex must be involved in the combat." but that does not say anything about any other units which may be involved too.
- 4.2.5 "If a force Retreats into a hex containing other ground units, all units in that hex are considered to have been involved in that original combat." but that does address our example here either.

And that's already all the rules say about involvement in combat (the other references where to movement and breakdowns). And based on that, you could as well argue that Retreat results can not be attributed to HQs giving Ranged Support at all if you go with a narrow definition of 'involved'.

But that then is contradicted by the example of 4.2.5.3 where the HQ giving Ranged Support is treated as involved and takes a step loss. Which to me shows that a wide definition of 'involved' is correct rather than a narrow one.

Thus: I say one steppers replacing two steppers are involved strictly spoken. And that now may or may not be correct.


Quote:
If you really want to hold Uwegrad, put you HQ there.
"I don't want to get any messages saying, 'We are holding Uwegrad.' We are not holding a goddamned thing - let the Koalas do that! We are advancing constantly and we are not interested in holding onto anything, except the enemy!"
 
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