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Android: Netrunner – Trace Amount» Forums » Rules

Subject: Sensei and Other Jinteki ICE rss

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Ben Finkel
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An unbroken Sensei leads to a Data Mine or Cell Portal that the Runner does not break. Does the run end, or is that subroutine no longer active because Data Mine is already in Archives / the Cell Portal is derezzed?
 
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Joshua C
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The run would end. Just treat any ice encountered as having an extra "End the Run" subroutine.
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I think the question is, does having the ICE derezzed abort the process of executing the unbroken subroutines on the ICE. It isn't clear to me because derezzed ICE is inactive, so does it "have" the subsequent subroutines after resolving the first which derezzes it?
 
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To try to answer using the rulebook, let's look...

page 5 says:
Quote:
Active: An active card’s abilities affect the game and can be triggered.
Inactive: An inactive card’s abilities do not affect the game and cannot be triggered.


page 6 says:
Quote:
Ice is active if rezzed and inactive if unrezzed.


page 16 says:
Quote:
If the Runner encounters a piece of rezzed ice and does
not or cannot break its subroutines, the unbroken subroutines
trigger and resolve one by one


Since the word "trigger" is used to describe what happens to subroutines as they fire, and also to describe what inactive cards cannot do, I think it means the subroutines following a "derez this ICE" subroutine do NOT fire.
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Aaaaand just to be sure,

page 16 says:
Quote:
Subroutines are abilities of a piece of ice


So we know that the statement on page 5 is relevant to subroutines since subroutines are abilities.
 
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Ben Finkel
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On the other hand, the timing diagram from the FAQ states:

3.1 Icebreakers can interact with the encountered
3.2 Resolve all subroutines not broken on the encountered ice

I guess the question is, do the subroutines go onto some sort of queue independent of the future active-ness of the ICE, or does their existence depend on the active-ness of the ICE?

And while we're at it, here's another stumper:

Sensei is followed by another Sensei. From what I gather reading the "Self-Referential Language" heading on page 21 of the rulebook, the second Sensei now has an "End the Run" subroutine. Is this correct?

Either way, imagine this convoluted scenario: Sensei is followed by a Cell Portal. Bizarrely, the Runner decides to break the Cell Portal's "End the run" subroutine, but not its original one. Now, the Runner is back to Sensei. Does it have an "End the Run" subroutine?

I'm inclined to say "no", because the self-referential language is indeed now referring to the same card, but the ruling regarding Ye Olde Netrunner's Tutor suggests the opposite. To be fair, though, old Netrunner's Tutor didn't explicitly rule itself out of the effects of its subroutine.
 
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Jeff Lindsay
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Azeltir wrote:
Sensei is followed by another Sensei. From what I gather reading the "Self-Referential Language" heading on page 21 of the rulebook, the second Sensei now has an "End the Run" subroutine. Is this correct?


This is correct. Each Sensei's prohibition against affecting 'Sensei' only applies to that card itself, as per the self-referential language rule you cited. It does not prevent it from adding an etr sub to another copy of sensei encountered after it during a run. E.g. if a runner encountered sensei and didn't break the sub, and the next piece of ice right after it was sensei, the 2nd sensei would have an end the run sub.

In terms of data mine and sensei, the etr sub it adds goes after all other subs. The first sub on data mine says "Do 1 net damage. Trash data mine." Assuming nothing is broken by the runner, unbroken subroutines are resolved in order. This means the first sub would trash data mine once resolved, and the added end the run sub wouldn't resolve since data mine is no longer in play.
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Pavlos Pavlopoulos
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Hrrrmmm wrote:
Azeltir wrote:
Sensei is followed by another Sensei. From what I gather reading the "Self-Referential Language" heading on page 21 of the rulebook, the second Sensei now has an "End the Run" subroutine. Is this correct?


This is correct. Each Sensei's prohibition against affecting 'Sensei' only applies to that card itself, as per the self-referential language rule you cited. It does not prevent it from adding an etr sub to another copy of sensei encountered after it during a run. E.g. if a runner encountered sensei and didn't break the sub, and the next piece of ice right after it was sensei, the 2nd sensei would have an end the run sub.

In terms of data mine and sensei, the etr sub it adds goes after all other subs. The first sub on data mine says "Do 1 net damage. Trash data mine." Assuming nothing is broken by the runner, unbroken subroutines are resolved in order. This means the first sub would trash data mine once resolved, and the added end the run sub wouldn't resolve since data mine is no longer in play.


Correct. Think of it this way. If you encounter a parasite-d piece of ice and take it to 0 str with Icecarver/Datasucker/Wyrm, the ice is trashed and no routines are triggered even though they weren't broken. I do not think this would change for this situation.
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Good comparison to Parasite I think. In the case of Parasite, we also try to "Resolve all subroutines not broken on the encountered ice" but they all fail. So I think the same logic applies, and we would fail to trigger the remaining subtroutines in the OP's case.

I don't think a "queue" such as Azeltir describes exists. Although I agree that whether such a queue exists is another way to state the problem. :)
 
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Yes I agree with the conclusion about the self-referential Sensei. The specific Sensei you Cell Portal yourself into will not have an ETR because it says it doesn't self-apply. But other ICE named Sensei in the same server will.
 
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Brian Grell
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Azeltir wrote:
An unbroken Sensei leads to a Data Mine or Cell Portal that the Runner does not break. Does the run end, or is that subroutine no longer active because Data Mine is already in Archives / the Cell Portal is derezzed?


Simple, each unbroken subroutine is resolved in order starting from the top. Since the first sub on Data Mine trashes it, that would happen before the end the run sub would come into effect. The same for the derez of Cell Portal.
 
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