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Subject: More senseless gun violence in Mexico rss

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Boaty McBoatface
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Has the Obama administration tried to use gun violence in Mexico as an excuse to bring in laws to stop Americans owning guns?

I agree that this was a fantastically ill conceived and and massively incompetently organised and run operation. Lets not forget that 'gun walking' has bee used (with similar effects) since 2006.

But this is also 2 years old, so it's old news.
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Boise
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Here's a summary of how restrictive the gun laws are in Mexico:

Mexico has strict gun laws. Mexican citizens and legal residents may purchase new non-military firearms for self-protection or hunting only after receiving approval of a petition to the Defense Ministry, which performs extensive background checks. The allowed weapons are restricted to relatively low-caliber and can be purchased from the Defense Ministry only. "Military" firearms, including pistols with bores exceeding .38 caliber, and bb guns (but not pellet guns) require federal licenses and are regulated in a manner similar to that dictated by the U.S. National Firearms Act (NFA). The private sale of "non-military" firearms, however, is unregulated, and while these firearms are supposed to be registered with the government, in practice this is widely ignored. Laws dealing with the possession of "non-military" firearms are left to the states. Generally, "non-military" firearms may be kept in the home, but a license is required to carry them outside the home. President Felipe Calderón has recently called attention to the alleged problem of the smuggling of guns from the United States into Mexico, guns which are easily available both legally and illegally in the United States, and has called for increased cooperation from the United States to stop this illegal weapons trafficking.In the five years prior to 2012, over two-thirds of illegal firearms seized in Mexico that could be traced to a source, were traced back to the United States of America. However, traceable firearms constitute only a small portion of the total seized, and the origin of the majority cannot be positively identified.

Mexico blaming the USA for it's violence and murder rate is similar to the USA blaming Mexico for it's "drug problem". Violence and addiction are not solved by government regulation - which is pretty easy to see considering how regulated drugs are here and guns are there. Frankly, since law-abiding citizens in mexico don't have the right to defend themselves then guns are primarily used by criminals - which pretty much fucks up the notion that gun control in a gun culture curtails gun crime.

While I don't personally blame Obama for the overall situation I do blame him and Holder for pouring gasoline on what is already a huge fire. Holder should be fired and possibly prosecuted for his part and Obama's part in F&F needs to be investigated. but it won't. American politics is becoming more and more like Mexican politics daily... corrupt.
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Boaty McBoatface
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DWTripp wrote:
Here's a summary of how restrictive the gun laws are in Mexico:

Mexico has strict gun laws. Mexican citizens and legal residents may purchase new non-military firearms for self-protection or hunting only after receiving approval of a petition to the Defense Ministry, which performs extensive background checks. The allowed weapons are restricted to relatively low-caliber and can be purchased from the Defense Ministry only. "Military" firearms, including pistols with bores exceeding .38 caliber, and bb guns (but not pellet guns) require federal licenses and are regulated in a manner similar to that dictated by the U.S. National Firearms Act (NFA). The private sale of "non-military" firearms, however, is unregulated, and while these firearms are supposed to be registered with the government, in practice this is widely ignored. Laws dealing with the possession of "non-military" firearms are left to the states. Generally, "non-military" firearms may be kept in the home, but a license is required to carry them outside the home. President Felipe Calderón has recently called attention to the alleged problem of the smuggling of guns from the United States into Mexico, guns which are easily available both legally and illegally in the United States, and has called for increased cooperation from the United States to stop this illegal weapons trafficking.In the five years prior to 2012, over two-thirds of illegal firearms seized in Mexico that could be traced to a source, were traced back to the United States of America. However, traceable firearms constitute only a small portion of the total seized, and the origin of the majority cannot be positively identified.

Mexico blaming the USA for it's violence and murder rate is similar to the USA blaming Mexico for it's "drug problem". Violence and addiction are not solved by government regulation - which is pretty easy to see considering how regulated drugs are here and guns are there. Frankly, since law-abiding citizens in mexico don't have the right to defend themselves then guns are primarily used by criminals - which pretty much fucks up the notion that gun control in a gun culture curtails gun crime.

While I don't personally blame Obama for the overall situation I do blame him and Holder for pouring gasoline on what is already a huge fire. Holder should be fired and possibly prosecuted for his part and Obama's part in F&F needs to be investigated. but it won't. American politics is becoming more and more like Mexican politics daily... corrupt.
This appears to have been an operation organised by one office (Phoenix, Arizona) I really wonder how much input (or even information) Obama had. This was a failure of high level oversight and over reliance on local organisation.
 
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slatersteven wrote:
This appears to have been an operation organised by one office (Phoenix, Arizona) I really wonder how much input (or even information) Obama had. This was a failure of high level oversight and over reliance on local organisation.


You need to get up to speed on this Slater. Otherwise you'e doomed to endlessly (and boringly) going over the same ground that was covered months ago in RSP.

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Boaty McBoatface
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DWTripp wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
This appears to have been an operation organised by one office (Phoenix, Arizona) I really wonder how much input (or even information) Obama had. This was a failure of high level oversight and over reliance on local organisation.


You need to get up to speed on this Slater. Otherwise you'e doomed to endlessly (and boringly) going over the same ground that was covered months ago in RSP.

the Department of Justice Inspector General issues a report on September 19 2012 that found that no senior officials at the Justice Department had authorized or approved of the tactics used in the Fast and Furious investigations. It fund that the fault lie with junior officers. Only three officers based outside of Phoenix (as far as I am aware) have been found to have been at fault (and that fault was not passing information up the chain of command).

So yes his does appear to have been a situation where senior management allowed to much local leeway and exercised too little oversight.
 
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slatersteven wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
This appears to have been an operation organised by one office (Phoenix, Arizona) I really wonder how much input (or even information) Obama had. This was a failure of high level oversight and over reliance on local organisation.


You need to get up to speed on this Slater. Otherwise you'e doomed to endlessly (and boringly) going over the same ground that was covered months ago in RSP.

the Department of Justice Inspector General issues a report on September 19 2012 that found that no senior officials at the Justice Department had authorized or approved of the tactics used in the Fast and Furious investigations. It fund that the fault lie with junior officers. Only three officers based outside of Phoenix (as far as I am aware) have been found to have been at fault (and that fault was not passing information up the chain of command).

So yes his does appear to have been a situation where senior management allowed to much local leeway and exercised too little oversight.


Fair enough then. Since you refuse to read anything outside of what you're comfortable with, ideologically, then I'll assume you prefer to remain ignorant about this particular issue and just want to rehash already discredited talking points from a culpable and guilty administration and it's henchmen.

Even your British press doesn't buy the shit Obama (and apparently you) are peddling.
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Boaty McBoatface
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DWTripp wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
This appears to have been an operation organised by one office (Phoenix, Arizona) I really wonder how much input (or even information) Obama had. This was a failure of high level oversight and over reliance on local organisation.


You need to get up to speed on this Slater. Otherwise you'e doomed to endlessly (and boringly) going over the same ground that was covered months ago in RSP.

the Department of Justice Inspector General issues a report on September 19 2012 that found that no senior officials at the Justice Department had authorized or approved of the tactics used in the Fast and Furious investigations. It fund that the fault lie with junior officers. Only three officers based outside of Phoenix (as far as I am aware) have been found to have been at fault (and that fault was not passing information up the chain of command).

So yes his does appear to have been a situation where senior management allowed to much local leeway and exercised too little oversight.


Fair enough then. Since you refuse to read anything outside of what you're comfortable with, ideologically, then I'll assume you prefer to remain ignorant about this particular issue and just want to rehash already discredited talking points from a culpable and guilty administration and it's henchmen.

Even your British press doesn't buy the shit Obama (and apparently you) are peddling.
You told me to get up to speed, that means find out the latest information. That is what I have done. I am sorry that does not tie in with your version of events. Now if you want to present me with more up to date information please do, but don't tell me to just accept your version of events.

Also the Fast and Furious The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Part II (produced by the republican part in the house) found that it was "was not strictly a local aberration." based on the fact that officials created the situation that enables the operation, not that they authorised or knew about it (and bases some of it's criticism on attempts to use information or gain prosecutions from it's Republican predecessor operation).
 
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Isaac Citrom
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Tripp, then you'll love this:

Ontario man acquitted of charges in home attack says case sets self defence precedent


A bunch of guys were setting fire to this man's home. He goes into his gun safe and retrieves a small caliber revolver from his collection. He fires three warning shots into the air and scares of the assailants. The attackers were later arrested and each sentenced to between 1 and 4 years (2 months to 8 months before parole, or 4 months to 16 months before automatic paraole, time before senetencing counts as double or triple).

This man was arrested and charged with a dangerous use of a firearm. He's been acquitted and this cost $60K in legal fees. Details in the article.
.
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Chris R.
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'Fast & Furious' rifle capable of taking down helicopter found in 'El Chapo' cache

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/01/20/rifle-capable-tak...

Way to go Obama and Holder.

"A .50-caliber rifle found at Joaquin 'El Chapo' Guzman's hideout in Mexico was funneled through the gun-smuggling investigation known as Fast and Furious... A .50-caliber is a massive rifle that can stop a car or, as it was intended, take down a helicopter....

Out of the roughly 2,000 weapons sold through Fast and Furious, 34 were .50-caliber rifles that can take down a helicopter...

'El Chapo' would put his guardsmen on hilltops to be on guard for Mexican police helicopters that would fly through valleys conducting raids. The sole purpose of the guardsmen would be to shoot down those helicopters...

the ATF lost track of 1,400 of the 2,000 guns involved in the sting operation."

...

Federal Judge Obama Appointed Strikes Down His Fast and Furious Executive Privilege Claim

"The administration has been battling Congress over various records related to the operation for years. The House voted in 2012 to hold then-Attorney General Eric Holder in contempt of Congress for withholding some of the records, with the support of 17 Democrats.

A federal judge ruled in August 2014, the DOJ must turn over documents sought by the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, also rejecting the administration’s invocation of executive privilege to withhold the documents. The ruling prompted the administration to release more than 60,000 pages of documents that November."

http://dailycaller.com/2016/01/19/judge-rules-obama-cant-shi...
 
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Jasper
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