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Subject: Neutral Coterie Control rss

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Joe
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On your turn if a Coterie is completely filled with neutral markers, do you control the special ability that turn, or just the individual Courtiers?
 
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Robert Werve
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You don't control the coterie. You can use the individuals unless you play the No Cheese variant.

Imho.
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Joe
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Oxyligen wrote:
You don't control the coterie. You can use the individuals unless you play the No Cheese variant.

Imho.


This is the way we had decided to play it, just thought I would post.
 
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Paul Leoncavallo
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No Cheese?
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Edward Bolme
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Indeed you do not control the coterie.
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Joe
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nyys wrote:
No Cheese?


We were playing this way, which partly influenced the decision.
 
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Nicholas Jost
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nyys wrote:
No Cheese?


There are some variants in the back of the rule book. "No Cheese" essentially leaves out how neutrals work with the exception of neutrals allowing players to swap cubes. I can't see ever wanting to play it that way though as the game time would likely increase by leaps and bounds.
 
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Kalle Miller
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nickjost wrote:
nyys wrote:
No Cheese?


There are some variants in the back of the rule book. "No Cheese" essentially leaves out how neutrals work with the exception of neutrals allowing players to swap cubes. I can't see ever wanting to play it that way though as the game time would likely increase by leaps and bounds.


Actually this is not quite correct. No Cheese only means you can't use only courtiers that are filled with neutral cubes to score a petition. In other words, you need to have at least one cube of your own on one of the listed courtiers.

It's not a radical change, and one that could as well have been in the rules to begin with, I think.
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Philip duBarry
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It was not an "original" rule, but I'm not opposed to it. I'm not sure I prefer it, but different people have different tastes.
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Brian B.
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I haven't played with it, but I like the idea of the No Cheese variant. The reason is the following scenario, which is similar to one that came up during a game I played. Player 1 completed a public petition; the fashion card that came up was to fill in the Atheneum, Church, and Culture coteries with neutral markers. The petition to take the previous one's place was the 6 point Cardinal & Physician petition. Both spots had been empty on the previous turn and thus were now completely full with neutral influence; player 2 thus had a petition that he could immediately take not through anything good he had done, but rather because he was sitting in a lucky seat. Granted, this doesn't happen often, but it feels like the kind of thing that shouldn't happen at all; you should always have done something more than sit in a lucky spot to earn a petition. Thus, why I like the variant.
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Edward Bolme
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To play devil's advocate, that can be seen as a catch-up mechanism.
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Brian B.
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I don't mind catch up mechanisms...in fact, I think they're good. And I do like the fact that a completely neutral Courtier can be influenced by anyone, as it speeds the game up and adds an interesting dynamic. But you should still have to do something to earn the catch up mechanism instead of just getting completely lucky. I have nothing against it if, in my example, player 2 uses his turn to play an influence on the Cardinal and thus can complete the petition in the No Cheese variant; he still did something to earn it.
 
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Ben Horne
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edbolme wrote:
To play devil's advocate, that can be seen as a catch-up mechanism.


I'm not so sure that it acts as a catch-up mechanism. The person who stands to benefit is the next player, and the next player need not be behind in the game at all. The next player could just as easily be in the lead. In such a case, The "cheese" mechanism acts as slingshot rather than as a catch-up. Even 7 points can easily wipe out the gains that someone has made from smart use of the culture coterie.
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Ben Horne
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LiteBulb88 wrote:
But you should still have to do something to earn the catch up mechanism instead of just getting completely lucky. I have nothing against it if, in my example, player 2 uses his turn to play an influence on the Cardinal and thus can complete the petition in the No Cheese variant; he still did something to earn it.


I like this. Call it "Fancy Cheese", because I suspect the queen loves fancy cheese.
Here's an iteration of Brian's suggestion:

On your turn, as an action, you may spend x number of influence markers to control, for the purposes of filling a petition, x many courtiers whose spaces are filled completely with neutral influence.

This variant would allow for players to seize the opportunities that arise from the fashion cards, but it would still give them a tough choice to make. Usually, when completing petitions, the influence from the courtiers is returned to your pool. Here you would be losing one influence from your pool to the reserve from every courtier you control in this way. In effect it costs them 1 action plus an action for each marker spent (since drawing a marker from the reserve is itself an action).
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Edward Bolme
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I like it.
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