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Subject: Colonize is faster than Warfare in activating planets without tech cards rss

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Frank Roitzsch
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I think if you can't support warfare with some important tech cards, you'll always be distinctly slower at getting as many planets like a strong Colonize-player.
1. Most of the time you need more space ships to start an attack on a planet as you need colonies to settle.
2. Every colonize symbol on planets and the tech card fertile ground decreases the colony amount (to start settling) by one (this is similiar to the bridge in Dominion, if you can use all buys you save a lot of money) Colonize symbols are even a duration bridge, really strong!
3. To put the cards under a planet isn't really a drawback because it cleans you deck for a while. Many colonize cards are annoying, if you only want so settle.
Is there a way to be faster or as fast as colonize with warfare without tech cards? I don't think so. Only with Scorched Earth Policy it could work, or?
 
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Frank Roitzsch
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I'm only talking about the direct competition between warfare and colonize. I mean in an one-on-one without tech cards if one only choose colonize and the other warfare. Every colonize-symbol is much more worth than a warfare symbol (warfare counts only one ship but colonize counts colony x amount of planets!) And you need also much more ships than colonies anyway.
But anyway that's all theoretical, I don't play without tech cards, but I really think the colonize symbols are much better.
 
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Scott Douglass
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Permanent colonize symbols are much stronger than permanent warfare symbols, so without techs colonize will generally be faster. There are some additional tempo and deck cycling aspects you need to consider when going colonize that you don't need to think about if you go warfare, but colonize is usually faster without techs than warfare.

On the other hand, warfare has better techs.

Cole, try getting Survey Team. It helps planet spam strategies get enough planets down.
 
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Chris Berger
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shinkyo wrote:
(warfare counts only one ship but colonize counts colony x amount of planets!)


Each Warfare symbol gives you +1 ship every time you call the warfare role to create ships. Each Colonize symbol gives you +1 colony each time you settle a planet.

Much of the time, between colonize/warfare roles and actions, you take one role to generate enough resources (colonies/ships) to fulfill a planet's requirements, followed by one action or role to flip it.

Which of the following would you say happens more often?
a) you need more than one role call to generate enough colonies/ships to be able to flip a planet
b) you generate so many colonies/ships that you can flip two planets in a row after one role call
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Frank Roitzsch
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arkayn wrote:
Each Warfare symbol gives you +1 ship every time you call the warfare role to create ships. Each Colonize symbol gives you +1 colony each time you settle a planet.
Yeah, I know. But for example, you have 3 planets with W:5/C:5. If the warfare-player has 2 warfare symbols he still need 3x5=15 ships to flip all 3 planets. The colonize-player only need 3x3=9 (-> 15 - 3 (planets) x 2 (colony-symbols) colonies to settle if there are 2 colony symbols out. But I see the point. Every time you choose warfare role and get ships, you get ships for every warfare symbol (and if you choose colonize role you get no colonies). But they already have to be out. I can get the colonize symbols later to have the fully effect. And still the most planets need less colonies than ships. So you see, only for flipping planets without everything else, Colonize is logically faster. That's all I wanted to point out. But the strong warfare-techs balance it more than enough I think.
 
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Chris Berger
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shinkyo wrote:
But for example, you have 3 planets with W:5/C:5. If the warfare-player has 2 warfare symbols he still need 3x5=15 ships to flip all 3 planets. The colonize-player only need 3x3=9 (-> 15 - 3 (planets) x 2 (colony-symbols) colonies to settle if there are 2 colony symbols out. But I see the point.


If the Warfare player has 2 warfare symbols, he can get 15 ships in 3 role calls with 9 total symbols from cards in hand (basically 9 Warfare cards, assuming no double warfare-symbol cards)... i.e. the same number of Colonize cards that the Colonize player has.

I don't see that Colonize is any faster, except if you can get like 4 Colonize symbols on planets and start flipping planets without needing any role calls to drop colonies. For small numbers of icons on planets, Colonize and Warfare are pretty much the exact same speed. The biggest difference is that Colonize starts with an extra card in your deck, but Warfare is more flexible (and also has the possibility of conquering a planet when you have less Warfare cards in your deck than the strength of the planet).
 
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Frank Roitzsch
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arkayn wrote:
If the Warfare player has 2 warfare symbols, he can get 15 ships in 3 role calls with 9 total symbols from cards in hand (basically 9 Warfare cards, assuming no double warfare-symbol cards)... i.e. the same number of Colonize cards that the Colonize player has.
Yes, that's what I meant. The difference is that you must have the warfare symbols at the start before selecting warfare role for ships. Colonize symbols give you the same benefit also if you get them later and have some planets out to settle. But maybe that balances out.
But then there stays the definite difference that nearly all planets need more ships or the same amount to conquer than colonies to settle.
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Chris Berger
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shinkyo wrote:
But then there stays the definite difference that nearly all planets need more ships or the same amount to conquer than colonies to settle.


That's true, but that's because Warfare is better than Colonize...
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Frank Roitzsch
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arkayn wrote:
That's true, but that's because Warfare is better than Colonize...
Maybe, it could be...
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David Grabiner
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An additional value of Warfare is that it can be done in advance. If you have no available planets, you can still play Warfare and take a lot of ships (or follow another player's Warfare), then Survey later to get a planet and conquer it with an action. Similarly, if you have extra Warfare cards, you can claim extra ships before you have a planet to place them on, and wait for another planet. Surplus colonists are less likely to be usable.
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