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Subject: Higher pilot number thought and issue rss

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Hey,

So, Darth Vader has a piloting skill of 9. So he moves last.

What benefit is this? His move is declared already, just hidden, so the ships that move into his path get to act, and then Darth Vader does not get to act as he comes into contact.

The the pilots with the highest piloting skill are the ones that are most likely to lose their action?

Am I missing something? Am I doing something in the wrong order? Is there something that allows pilots to adjust after they see the maneuver made by the opposing pilot?

Or is Darth, or any other high skill pilot, just screwed?

It seems that the Imperials could try a strategy where they constantly bump the x wings and thereby deny actions. Has anybody tried this with a report?
 
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Gregorio Morales
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See it the other way round. If Darth Vader has a lot of people in front of him, he knows they will move out first, so Vader won't lose the action.

Furthermore, knowing where are the others is a nice knowledge when it comes to choose the action!
 
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Jason Jullie
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Going last is a huge advantage when you consider the actions. Barrel roll, boost, and target lock all give you an advantage the later they are used in the round. You are able to react to a more complete board state. Play a few games and you'll see the advantage yourself.
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With Wave 2 it becomes an even huger advantage to go later because there is so much Action based movement going on (Barrel Roll, Boost, Daredevil). Vader can literally laterally slide across the board with the right upgrades.
 
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Trenton Lipscomb
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If you don't lose your action because of a collision, the crux of the OP.

Generally speaking, because all moves are decided in secret, all ships have equal opportunity to collide. No one knows worth certainty where ships will end up. Some locations are more likely, some are impossible, though.
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trentonl wrote:
If you don't lose your action because of a collision, the crux of the OP.

Generally speaking, because all moves are decided in secret, all ships have equal opportunity to collide. No one knows worth certainty where ships will end up. Some locations are more likely, some are impossible, though.


That's not exactly true. While you can get screwed by a move that you didn't expect, not all ships have an equal opportunity to collide. Where you send your ship in order to ensure you don't lose your actions is a huge aspect of the game. Many times you will find it is advantageous to make one move over another because it improves the chances of giving your pilot his actions.

While going first has an advantage of reducing the chances of collision, it can also really limit where you'd like to go because other ships won't be out of your way. Often times you'll find your lower skilled ships have to end up in a sub-optimal spot because other ships that move later won't be out of the way until later. I think that balances the advantage of knowing the game state when the lower skill pilot is activated.

I'd suggest playing some games and see for yourself. Experienced empire players can really expose the importance of moving last and the advantage it grants you.
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trentonl wrote:
If you don't lose your action because of a collision, the crux of the OP.


Thank you for pointing out to the others what I was trying to say. They say, see it the other way around but my post has a clear point. The Higher Skill pilots are most likely to lose their actions. Darth Vader has already decided his maneuver, and because he goes last, he is stuck with that maneuver no matter what.


Quote:
Generally speaking, because all moves are decided in secret, all ships have equal opportunity to collide. No one knows worth certainty where ships will end up. Some locations are more likely, some are impossible, though.


So, the other side can deliberately get in his way, use their action, and then obstruct his maneuver, causing a collision. He then loses his 2 actions.

The chance for collision is equal, but due to action rules, generally speaking the higher skill pilots are more likely to lose their actions.

 
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gmoralesor wrote:
See it the other way round. If Darth Vader has a lot of people in front of him, he knows they will move out first, so Vader won't lose the action.

Furthermore, knowing where are the others is a nice knowledge when it comes to choose the action!


Yes, but my point is, has somebody tried to deliberately obstruct the high skill pilots?

he will lost his action because he has to decide his maneuver BEFORE he sees their moves, right? So they bracket his movement and then cause a collision. So Vader loses his 2 actions.

The Imperials will be able to do this much better.

I am wondering if an Imperial build with a ton of cheap tie fighters can repeatedly obstruct, deny actions and then allow Darth Vader to flank. Has that been tried?

And for the rebels, just deliberately get in the way of Vader.
 
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Dignan wrote:
Going last is a huge advantage when you consider the actions. Barrel roll, boost, and target lock all give you an advantage the later they are used in the round. You are able to react to a more complete board state. Play a few games and you'll see the advantage yourself.


Have played a few, and have noticed repeatedly the higher skill pilots losing their actions due to collision.

You cant barrel roll, target lock, etc if you get into a collision.
 
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ghbell wrote:
What benefit is this?


When colliding, the advantage is staying behind someone with them still in your arc.

When not colliding, the advantage of knowing who is focusing, who is ACTUALLY in arc, and not hopefully, and seeing most of the other actions is a HUGE ADVANTAGE.
 
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Geosphere wrote:
ghbell wrote:
What benefit is this?


When colliding, the advantage is staying behind someone with them still in your arc.

When not colliding, the advantage of knowing who is focusing, who is ACTUALLY in arc, and not hopefully, and seeing most of the other actions is a HUGE ADVANTAGE.


Moving last is a huge advantage if no collision hits. I am asking if a strategy has been tried to deliberately collide and deny the High Skill pilots their actions.
 
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ghbell wrote:
Dignan wrote:
Going last is a huge advantage when you consider the actions. Barrel roll, boost, and target lock all give you an advantage the later they are used in the round. You are able to react to a more complete board state. Play a few games and you'll see the advantage yourself.


Have played a few, and have noticed repeatedly the higher skill pilots losing their actions due to collision.

You cant barrel roll, target lock, etc if you get into a collision.


I would say the higher skill players need to take a little more care in the planning of their moves. This is a tactical game. Envisioning future game states, weighing the relative gambles of a given move are all part of the game.

In the two Kessel run events I won, I worked hard to ensure that my higher skilled pilots kept their actions. In my first event, I don't believe I ever had Wedge lose his action. In the second event, Vader only lost his action a time or two. In my experience, I've found that careful planning can give the higher skilled pilots a huge advantage. Your mileage may very.
 
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ghbell wrote:
Geosphere wrote:
ghbell wrote:
What benefit is this?


When colliding, the advantage is staying behind someone with them still in your arc.

When not colliding, the advantage of knowing who is focusing, who is ACTUALLY in arc, and not hopefully, and seeing most of the other actions is a HUGE ADVANTAGE.


Moving last is a huge advantage if no collision hits. I am asking if a strategy has been tried to deliberately collide and deny the High Skill pilots their actions.


Yes, this has been tried and is an important part of the game. There are several posts here about it. I've tried it to varying degrees of success in the two tournaments I've been in. It's trickier to pull off than it might initially appear. In my second event, a player really focused on this and I was able to evade these collisions when I saw his plan. He ended up getting his ships into bad spots because he kept trying to block my high skill pilots.
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Dignan wrote:
ghbell wrote:
Geosphere wrote:
ghbell wrote:
What benefit is this?


When colliding, the advantage is staying behind someone with them still in your arc.

When not colliding, the advantage of knowing who is focusing, who is ACTUALLY in arc, and not hopefully, and seeing most of the other actions is a HUGE ADVANTAGE.


Moving last is a huge advantage if no collision hits. I am asking if a strategy has been tried to deliberately collide and deny the High Skill pilots their actions.


Yes, this has been tried and is an important part of the game. There are several posts here about it. I've tried it to varying degrees of success in the two tournaments I've been in. It's trickier to pull off than it might initially appear. In my second event, a player really focused on this and I was able to evade these collisions when I saw his plan. He ended up getting his ships into bad spots because he kept trying to block my high skill pilots.


That is what I was trying to find, which I could not. Thanks.
 
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An allied Large ship with the same or almost as high pilot skill is a great way to insure your ace pilots have a clear spot to land.
 
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ghbell wrote:
I am asking if a strategy has been tried to deliberately collide and deny the High Skill pilots their actions.

I do this all the time. The real game here is the bluffing game of maneuvers. You watch your opponent, you study how he's played, you try to predict where he's going to go. With higher pilots, I will often try to predict where he's going and purposefully fly a ship in that direction so he loses his action. Also, if I am planning on a collision, I can usually have one or two other ships hang back so where he (might) collide, he'd be in their firing arc.

The bluffing game of maneuvers is what makes this game so brilliant.

-shnar
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shnar wrote:
ghbell wrote:
I am asking if a strategy has been tried to deliberately collide and deny the High Skill pilots their actions.

I do this all the time. The real game here is the bluffing game of maneuvers. You watch your opponent, you study how he's played, you try to predict where he's going to go. With higher pilots, I will often try to predict where he's going and purposefully fly a ship in that direction so he loses his action. Also, if I am planning on a collision, I can usually have one or two other ships hang back so where he (might) collide, he'd be in their firing arc.

The bluffing game of maneuvers is what makes this game so brilliant.

-shnar


Right, the real game. I am going to clearly need to pay more attention to that.

Thank you for the answer.
 
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You're welcome

-shnar
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The worst is getting boned by the pushback rules, and then getting pushed back off of the edge of the board.

Push back is going to happen to the higher level guys of course.

Ce las vis I guess.
 
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ghbell wrote:
The worst is getting boned by the pushback rules, and then getting pushed back off of the edge of the board.

Push back is going to happen to the higher level guys of course.

Ce las vis I guess.


I'm not sure if you're being serious in a lot of these posts. You seem to have some real axe to grind with how high level pilots are screwed over by this game's movement -- that's simply not the case (as many above have tried to show). Of course risk of 'collisions' is something to consider in movement, and clogging the board is something a big swarm of TIEs actively tries to do (a la the Return of the Jedi movie when the TIEs are everywhere and the Rebels complain "There's too many!").

Planning your maneuvers each turn should reflect how early in the pilot order your ships are moving -- obviously an Academy Pilot should be planning his move with different considerations in mind than Darth Vader. Vader gets the big advantage of knowing what the board looks like when he chooses his Actions and of shooting first in the combat round.


As to getting "pushed back off the map" I'd suggest simply playing the game more and seeing how it pans out on the table top. One can never get "pushed back" beyond where the ship started (at worst, you simply wouldn't move at all). So I can't imagine any scenario where a ship gets pushed off the edge unless it was already dangerously and foolishly close to the edge and had it's turning attempt got blocked, but that's typically why one should not fly their ships pointed off the map close to the edge.
 
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RogueThirteen wrote:
ghbell wrote:
The worst is getting boned by the pushback rules, and then getting pushed back off of the edge of the board.

Push back is going to happen to the higher level guys of course.

Ce las vis I guess.


Planning your maneuvers each turn should reflect how early in the pilot order your ships are moving -- obviously an Academy Pilot should be planning his move with different considerations in mind than Darth Vader. Vader gets the big advantage of knowing what the board looks like when he chooses his Actions and of shooting first in the combat round.


Shooting first is a huge advantage. Clearly. The focus of this is on movement, and how swarms of ships can clog and force collisions and then deny actions as a result.

Quote:
As to getting "pushed back off the map" I'd suggest simply playing the game more and seeing how it pans out on the table top. One can never get "pushed back" beyond where the ship started (at worst, you simply wouldn't move at all). So I can't imagine any scenario where a ship gets pushed off the edge unless it was already dangerously and foolishly close to the edge and had it's turning attempt got blocked, but that's typically why one should not fly their ships pointed off the map close to the edge.


After several games, I have learned the hard way to avoid the edge at all costs. So when they say play on a 36x36 map, they really mean a 30x30. Lesson learned.

 
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Takes some practice George. Also, trying to not be predictable can help things too. Where there may be a sure maneuver you should make and is obvious to the opponent, maybe try something different once in awhile that keeps them guessing.
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Hey Greg,

I will need some more practice for sure. In my mind, the maneuvers were definitely the best part of the game. I was trying not to be predictable but that apparently was not the case. Not sure where I stand on the game overall, I need a few more to make that decision. Lotta dice. I have to learn how to mitigate those.
 
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ghbell wrote:
The focus of this is on movement, and how swarms of ships can clog and force collisions and then deny actions as a result.

Which is where experience comes into play. You start to learn your opponent, guessing where he's going to fly, knowing where your ships are flying, and all that helps prevent collisions on higher skilled pilots.

-shnar
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ghbell wrote:
Hey Greg,

I will need some more practice for sure. In my mind, the maneuvers were definitely the best part of the game. I was trying not to be predictable but that apparently was not the case. Not sure where I stand on the game overall, I need a few more to make that decision. Lotta dice. I have to learn how to mitigate those.



George,

I taught my nephew the game last night and he had some bad dice. We had 80 point fleets and I had Luke and 2 Reds vs. Vader, Howlrunner and 2 Obsidians (plus upgrades etc for all the pilots except a couple).

I pretty much cleaned his clock and only lost a few shields. But I had some good rolls to his bad rolls. Though more importantly was that he was new to the game and didn't take advantage of Howlrunner's ability and only used Vader's Swarm Tactics once. He also chose not to use focus for defending one time (wanted to save it for attacking) and it cost him as that ship got destroyed shortly after. He also spread out his attacks when he should have concentrated on one of my Reds with all of his forces and pick me apart. R2D2 got Luke's shields back, not to mention his ability to change a focus symbol to an evade.

So while there were some lucky dice rolls here and there, lack of skill and game experience, and not taking advantage of everything he had available to him was just as important in his loss as the dice. He's 17 and has played a ton of games, so he's not a non-gamer trying to play, but he still didn't have enough experience.
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