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Subject: Rolling a "0" on 1d10 rss

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Russ Spears
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I've been working on a design over the past couple of months in which one of the key factors (or gimmicks) has been that when rolling 1d10, a result of "0" = "0", not "10". Each playtester has had a little learning hump for this, but after a couple of turns they get used to the idea.

Are there other games that use this as a mechanic? I've been a little shocked at how hard it's been to explain that there is no "10".
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T France
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rasslor wrote:
I've been working on a design over the past couple of months in which one of the key factors (or gimmicks) has been that when rolling 1d10, a result of "0" = "0", not "10". Each playtester has had a little learning hump for this, but after a couple of turns they get used to the idea.

Are there other games that use this as a mechanic? I've been a little shocked at how hard it's been to explain that there is no "10".


Maybe call it a d9?... laugh
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Alfred Wallace
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A lot of wargames go 0-9...which may not be relevant to your needs, but there you are.
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Darrell Pavitt
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The most famous of which is probably Ambush!.

Whenever I see a d10 in he box, the first thing I do is check the start of the rules to see if "0" is a "0" or "10"...
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Boaty McBoatface
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Get a d10 with a 10 on it.

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Ted Torgerson
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This is the die that we use in the game but it's very special,as you can see the die goes down to zero. Right across the board zero zero zero.

And most d10 go 1 to 10.

Exactly.

Does that mean its lower? Is it any lower?

Well, it's one lower, isn't it? It's not one. You see, most blokes, you know, will be playing at one. You're on one here, all the way down, all the way down, all the way down, you're on one on your die. Where can you go from there? Where?

I don't know.

Nowhere exactly!

Why don't you just make the 9 result a ten result and the zero result the 1 result, make that a little lower?

These dice go to zero.




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Clarke Lapp
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Well, the convention for most other common dice is for it to go from 1-X if it is a dX. The issue here is one of training on general dice conventions.

The psychological ramifications on your players should be consistent with what you're going for though: if you've chosen to go 0-9 rather than 1-10 you seem to be instilling a fear of failure vs. hope of success in your game, and the disorientation that subverting convention provides should support that dynamic.
 
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John "Omega" Williams
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1-9 = a hit of some sort while a 0 is a guaranteed miss or some sort of critical failure.

Works for a game where there is never a 100% chance of success.
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Russ Spears
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The d10 is used for a couple of things:

Combat: Basic "To-hit", where higher is better. Without modifiers 0-4 is a miss, while 5-9 is a hit.

Re-Spawning: (This is Yet Another Zombie Game, but it's a good genre for the ideas I wanted to fit into my first design). When losing combat, you roll 1d10 to see if you come back into play on your following turn. You have to roll higher than the total number of times you've lost combat (kept track of by player during game play). Here, rolling "0" is bad for the player.

There are cards drawn which give modifiers and/or more enemies. It's possible to have a modifier of 0, as well as spawn 0 enemies.

The die I have are number 0-9, which I provide for the play testers.

d4 and d6 are also used in the game, and each of those use the face numbers on the die (1-4 and 1-6).

So with all of that said, there are times a 0 may be good for the player or it may be bad for the player, but it's always a 0 and not a 10.
 
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Jorik
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Kriegbot uses multiple D6 that go from 0-5 and has the 1 & zero opposite each other.
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Oliver Kiley
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1989Game wrote:
This is the die that we use in the game but it's very special,as you can see the die goes down to zero. Right across the board zero zero zero.

And most d10 go 1 to 10.

Exactly.

Does that mean its lower? Is it any lower?

Well, it's one lower, isn't it? It's not one. You see, most blokes, you know, will be playing at one. You're on one here, all the way down, all the way down, all the way down, you're on one on your die. Where can you go from there? Where?

I don't know.

Nowhere exactly!

Why don't you just make the 9 result a ten result and the zero result the 1 result, make that a little lower?

These dice go to zero.


At first I was confused, and them I remembered. And then I laughed.
 
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J. Emmett
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Omega2064 wrote:
1-9 = a hit of some sort while a 0 is a guaranteed miss or some sort of critical failure.

Works for a game where there is never a 100% chance of success.


I always thought a game with open-ended rolling could use a d10 counted 0-9. In Shadowrun (at least when I played it), there was no sense in having a Target Number 6, since if you roll a 6 on a die, you immediately roll another d6—so are guaranteed hitting at least TN 7. So, there is no TN 6.

But rolling a 9 on a d10 means you might still come out with a 9 after rolling the second die.

Well I know that's materially identical to the d6 example. But it's more sensible to me anyway.
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Nate K
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Mezmorki wrote:
1989Game wrote:
This is the die that we use in the game but it's very special,as you can see the die goes down to zero. Right across the board zero zero zero.

And most d10 go 1 to 10.

Exactly.

Does that mean its lower? Is it any lower?

Well, it's one lower, isn't it? It's not one. You see, most blokes, you know, will be playing at one. You're on one here, all the way down, all the way down, all the way down, you're on one on your die. Where can you go from there? Where?

I don't know.

Nowhere exactly!

Why don't you just make the 9 result a ten result and the zero result the 1 result, make that a little lower?

These dice go to zero.


At first I was confused, and them I remembered. And then I laughed.




Yeah, my first response to this was, "Huh?"

I reread it I think three times before it finally sunk in. I just needed to imagine this being spoken by a bunch of drugged-out 80s rockers.
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いい竹やぶだ!

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Just explain that the roll is modulo 10, and everyone will instantly understand.
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Julian Wasson
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It's uncommon for sure, but not unheard of. I can think of a couple percentile-based RPGs that go from 00-99. Space Hulk: Death Angel – The Card Game uses a six-sided die that goes from 0-5.

I do think it's kind of weird that the d10 is the only die that goes down to 0. It's the sort of thing that would trip me up for a few turns, but you eventually internalize it. Realize that you're subverting a convention here. That should always be a considered choice, not just something you throw in willy-nilly because it sounded cool. If you have a specific reason for it that's great: it makes your odds work out the way you want more cleanly, or better evokes a feel you're looking for. But at a certain point you're going to want to stop and ask yourself, "Is this necessary?" Sometimes the answer is yes, sometimes it's no, but either way you have to ask it.

Just to note: if you have to roll higher than the number of losses, then on your first loss you have two chances at failure: 0 and 1. If that's intended then cool, but if you don't want that spike to 20% chance of not coming back, then the 1-10 version works better.
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Russ Spears
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Cosmonaut Zero wrote:
Just to note: if you have to roll higher than the number of losses, then on your first loss you have two chances at failure: 0 and 1. If that's intended then cool, but if you don't want that spike to 20% chance of not coming back, then the 1-10 version works better.

I've been going back and forth with "higher than" or "equal to or higher than". Since you don't necessarily "die" when losing combat, I've been leaving it at "higher than" to make that first comabt loss a little more scary.

There are some modifiers through the game that spike it some more so that first spike isn't as noticeable so far while testing - usually by the time someone is rolling for their 3rd respawn they've guilt up some modifier where they have to roll higher than a 6.

Along with that there are some modifiers that can reduce your target roll, but never below 1. There's always a chance to miss with the 0 that way (so no auto-hit, which is intended).
 
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Russ Spears
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robigo wrote:
Just explain that the roll is modulo 10, and everyone will instantly understand.

So far everyone is equally geeky enough where that explanation would make sense, much like how movement on the grid map is orthogonal.
 
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Ron Parker
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Betrayal at House on the Hill has d6 with zero, one, or two pips on each face. I suppose that's easier to deal with than an actual number 0, though.
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ErikPeter Walker
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A cool use of 0-9 could be a multiplicative system where you roll two or more dice together and multiply them (though for ease of use it might be better with a 0-5 or specially designed 0,1,1,2,2,3) to get a result. The more risk you take the more likely you are to roll '0', but also skyrockets your average success.
 
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Matt Kruczek
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kurthl33t wrote:

Yeah, my first response to this was, "Huh?"

I reread it I think three times before it finally sunk in. I just needed to imagine this being spoken by a bunch of drugged-out 80s rockers.


I mean, how much more Tap could it be? None. None more Tap....
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Jeff Plummer
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If the die produced with the game had a blank side instead of a zero or ten, I don't think there would be any confusion.
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Julian Wasson
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rasslor wrote:
Cosmonaut Zero wrote:
Just to note: if you have to roll higher than the number of losses, then on your first loss you have two chances at failure: 0 and 1. If that's intended then cool, but if you don't want that spike to 20% chance of not coming back, then the 1-10 version works better.

I've been going back and forth with "higher than" or "equal to or higher than". Since you don't necessarily "die" when losing combat, I've been leaving it at "higher than" to make that first comabt loss a little more scary.

There are some modifiers through the game that spike it some more so that first spike isn't as noticeable so far while testing - usually by the time someone is rolling for their 3rd respawn they've guilt up some modifier where they have to roll higher than a 6.

Along with that there are some modifiers that can reduce your target roll, but never below 1. There's always a chance to miss with the 0 that way (so no auto-hit, which is intended).


For whatever reason, I find that people have an easier time with "higher than." Maybe it's just because "equal to or higher than" is wordier, I dunno. Also, remember if you do "higher than," then the minimum modified target number of 1 still gives you a 10% chance of failure.

Totally respect the "make it more scary" line of reasoning. That's legit. Having a minimum 20% chance to die, even with maximum precaution, is totally thematic for a horror game (it works great in Death Angel).
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Hector Cornejo
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Sure, in Role Playing games it happened a lot actually.

I cant remember if it did in Vampire:TM, but in Ars Majica a 0 result (if I remember correctly) was a Botch. It was a BAD THING, which could include gaining Twilight points...or becoming one with magic and losing a bit of your essence. Eventually if you do this too many times you can actually fade away into the magic fields that circumnavigated the globe.

In 7th Sea RPG, a 0 actually was the opposite, they "Exploded" where they were re-rolled (and kept on re-rolling if the result was another 0) and added to the result. Just made the game more spectacular and dramatic.
 
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