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Subject: 2 combat system in 1 game rss

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Eric Pietrocupo
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In my game, I currently use a combat system where each side is rolling 2 dice and each roll of 4+ kill a unit. Player's alternate rolling until a player retreat or is annihilated.

I played with some euro gamers and they found that there was too much die rolls. They suggested using the following system: attacker roll 2d, remove casualties, then each defending units kills an attacking unit. Survivor wins. Additionally, you resolve combat separately when invading from multiple cities allowing a player to have more rolls if he surround his enemy.

This method seems much better because it implies more strategy, large stack of units harder to destroy and that system is already used for resolving invasions. It was used in invasions to make the resolution faster.

So it clearly seems a better option. But I think I am capable of making my game support both system without any rule conflict with technology cards or other rules.

So I was wondering if it was actually a good idea to have 2 different possible combat system in the same game. The new system could be the official game rule, and the old random system could be the optional rules.

That would make the game more flexible and allow people to play with more randomness or more strategy.

What do you think?
 
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Dallas Tucker
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I like optional rules that add to the game, rather than change it like that. I prefer feeling like the game is complete the way it is.
 
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Abdul Rahman Ibrahim
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I'd say stick to one system and test it further. Some people actually like more dice rolling. The cons for rolling more dice is that it consumes more time to resolve, but the results will be closer to what your game has in mind. The other method sounds cool, but you better check whether or not it'll upset the balance of your game as a whole, since the results vary between those two methods by quite a large margin.
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Marshall Miller
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Different rules for different situations, no prob.
 
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Eric Pietrocupo
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I made some testing and the new system seems better. I was just wondering if I should make some effort to make sure the system is backward compatible. Apparently not.
 
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John "Omega" Williams
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You made the mistake of playtesting outside your target audience and got conflicting advice.

you cannot make a game appeal to everyone. Your theme will kill it, your lack of theme will kill it, dice? dead. No dice? DOA.
Wood? Plastic? cubes? Minis? Tiles? Cards? Hexes? Squares?

Go back to your original game design and playtest it with your target audience.
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Eric Etkin
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Omega2064 wrote:
You made the mistake of playtesting outside your target audience and got conflicting advice.

you cannot make a game appeal to everyone. Your theme will kill it, your lack of theme will kill it, dice? dead. No dice? DOA.
Wood? Plastic? cubes? Minis? Tiles? Cards? Hexes? Squares?

Go back to your original game design and playtest it with your target audience.


This is spot-on. I can't tell you how many rainbows I've chased tweaking a system to accommodate certain interests that don't reflect the majority.
 
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Carlo
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When it comes to playtesters I'm always brought back to this quote:

"Talk to playtesters to find out problems, but ignore their solutions. Talk to other designers to work out solutions, but ignore their problems."

In my opinion people who want to play Eurogames will play Eurogames. People who want less chits and more dice will play something else. You need to decide on what route you want to go, and try to generally stick to that direction regardless of feedback.

Personally I like more dice rolling, so look, an opposite opinion from what you got already
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damian isherwood
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You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time.
 
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Eric Pietrocupo
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Quote:
"Talk to playtesters to find out problems, but ignore their solutions. Talk to other designers to work out solutions, but ignore their problems."


laugh

I always take people's advice with a grain of salt. Generally, when I make a change is because I beleive in it. In my case, it had positive effects on many other elements. So I am currently weighting the pro and cons. Personally, I like both systems.
 
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Scott Campbell
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Warbringerd wrote:
You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time.

Ever, you can't please all of the people, ever.
 
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Carlo
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larienna wrote:
So I am currently weighting the pro and cons. Personally, I like both systems.

That's always the hardest, when you like a mechanic just because it's awesome. I've had a couple instances of that where I had to force myself to just save the mechanic for another game because it didn't fit in with the original.

On the upside if you stick with one combat system you potentially have the other as a cool mechanic for a later project.
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Erik McGrath
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My one truism:
When you are making a game always design a game that you want to play.

So if you like dice rolling and the mechanic does what you want it to then keep it.
 
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David Cheng
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Multi-combat system is not a new thing in board game. I used several different combat systems in my game Advanced Wizard's Quest. We have the standard player vs player battle with rolling dice. Then I added an auto-battle system for player vs A.I. battle without dice. Besides, we have the hero combat system (duels) between heroes/monsters & siege combat system for besieging castles. None of these are optional rules. I don't see any problem with them so far.
 
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Eric Pietrocupo
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Quote:

My one truism:
When you are making a game always design a game that you want to play.

So if you like dice rolling and the mechanic does what you want it to then keep it.


I tested the new system and I like it. It seems to fix other issues too. So I think If I would have to chose, I would take the new system because the game will be more elegant this way.

But I am just wondering for special powers and abilities if I should make the rules compatible with both systems.
 
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Carlo
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qkent wrote:
I concur, one always needs a morgue of ideas.


Haha I like the morgue term.
 
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Kirk Monsen
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larienna wrote:
In my game, I currently use a combat system where each side is rolling 2 dice and each roll of 4+ kill a unit. Player's alternate rolling until a player retreat or is annihilated.

I played with some euro gamers and they found that there was too much die rolls. They suggested using the following system: attacker roll 2d, remove casualties, then each defending units kills an attacking unit. Survivor wins. Additionally, you resolve combat separately when invading from multiple cities allowing a player to have more rolls if he surround his enemy.


Why not use both? (but not in the way you suggest).

Alternate combat, starting with the attacker.

The player can choose to either
- roll 2d6 and on each 4+ he removes an enemy unit (potentially eliminating zero, one, or two units)
- or not roll dice and remove one enemy unit
- or withdraw, removing your units from combat

Then the next player can do those options. Keep going back and forth until a player withdraws or loses all their pieces.

This allows combat to be handled the same way by both players, and allows players to take risks if they want. This also allows you to make modifications based on factors (how many units attack, are they flanking, etc).

Maybe allow the player with more units to roll a free extra die, or have them kill on a 3+. Or change the rules so the number of dice rolled is a factor of number of units (1 die per unit, or 1 free kill per two units), which allows people to mix and match (I have 3 units, I can roll 3 dice, or I can get 1 free kill and 1 die roll).

The specifics would be determined by how big a stack you allow.

-Munch "the key is, whatever combat method is used should be fair to both sides" Wolf
 
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Buddha Meeple
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Something similar is done (at least I heard so) in Samurai Battles
 
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