True Blue Jon
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In these threads, we discuss the text and what we think of it. This discussion is open to everyone. I'm using the NIV translation.

Luke 6

One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and his disciples began to pick some heads of grain, rub them in their hands and eat the kernels. Some of the Pharisees asked, "Why are you doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?"

Jesus answered them, "Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God, and taking the consecrated bread, he ate what is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions." Then Jesus said to them, "The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

On another Sabbath he went into the synagogue and was teaching, and a man was there whose right hand was shriveled. The Pharisees and the teachers of the law were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal on the Sabbath. But Jesus knew what they were thinking and said to the man with the shriveled hand, "Get up and stand in front of everyone." So he got up and stood there.

Then Jesus said to them, "I ask you, which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy it?"

He looked around at them all, and then said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." He did so, and his hand was completely restored. But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law were furious and began to discuss with one another what they might do to Jesus.

One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God. When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles: Simon (whom he named Peter), his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called the Zealot, Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

He went down with them and stood on a level place. A large crowd of his disciples was there and a great number of people from all over Judea, from Jerusalem, and from the coastal region around Tyre and Sidon, who had come to hear him and to be healed of their diseases. Those troubled by impure spirits were cured, and the people all tried to touch him, because power was coming from him and healing them all.

Looking at his disciples, he said:

"Blessed are you who are poor,
for yours is the kingdom of God.
Blessed are you who hunger now,
for you will be satisfied.
Blessed are you who weep now,
for you will laugh.
Blessed are you when people hate you,
when they exclude you and insult you
and reject your name as evil,
because of the Son of Man.

"Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their ancestors treated the prophets.

"But woe to you who are rich,
for you have already received your comfort.
Woe to you who are well fed now,
for you will go hungry.
Woe to you who laugh now,
for you will mourn and weep.
Woe to you when everyone speaks well of you,
for that is how their ancestors treated the false prophets.

"But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you.

"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

He also told them this parable: "Can the blind lead the blind? Will they not both fall into a pit? The student is not above the teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like their teacher.

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

"No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.

"Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say? As for everyone who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice, I will show you what they are like. They are like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete."
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lotus dweller
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Looking at a map showing Judeah, Jerusalem, (not showing Sidon north of) and Tyre it looks like Jesus covered some miles.

And if large crowds were being drawn from across the region* then I'm guessing that itinerant preachers/prophets were very common and that's why Jesus never made the official reports (and maybe not Josephus' histories either).


*Though there is that other way of having a large crowd from all across the region.

"Hay we got anywin frim Jersusalemere tiday? Yea? Gibthemanabighandsfolks, thatsalongway to travel when you're as fat as that guy, though being that ugly would keep thi robbers away hahahaha. Just kuddin sir. What about Sidon? Have we got any mariners here? Ah that man whohasjust joined the meeting! We'llgivehim .... , Oh is that you wife sir? If theres more like her I'ma haveto move toSidon. Well today we've got a large crowd here from all ova here abouts and far aways and here without further delay is someone with something you'll want to hear - Jesus!"
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lotus dweller
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Here in demonic, heretical, possibly blasphemous, colours is a time line - beside the colours it also has the Gospels situated on the wrong side of the crucifixion (assuming a traditional approach to the flow of time is being taken).



This aside, it's interesting to see Luke being written just a few years before the destruction of Jerusalem, at roughly the same time that Nero is persecuting Christians in Rome, maybe just after Pert has been killed by Nero.
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L H
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For me this chapter contains the essence of what it means to be christian. A very good read indeed. Thanks for taking the time to share.
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Steve e^(iπ)+1=0
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xldh wrote:
For me this chapter contains the essence of what it means to be christian. A very good read indeed. Thanks for taking the time to share.

Interesting. I think that this chapter is only half of the essence, and subordinate to the previous chapter. Both chapters together mirror the sum of the law: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself." This chapter is one of evidence and action that necessarily must follow the forgiveness found in Luke 5. If I follow this chapter without the previous, I risk becoming like the Pharisees - focusing on the "look what I can do" aspect. If I follow the previous chapter without living in this one, I'm an unloving hypocrite.

A third possibility is viewing this as a general moral code, which can be seen in other religions and even practiced by atheists. It survives Jefferson's knife in his version. As such, I think much of this chapter can be practiced by all and all can enjoy the benefits without holding to Christianity. Paul describes this in Romans by indicating some who "are a law unto themselves". This is a reflection of God's patience and grace to all. Without basic kindness as described here and the subsequent blessings, a civilization would literally go to hell in a hand basket.
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Lynette
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Some of my favorite scripture is in this chapter and some of the scripture I find the hardest to actually live out in daily life is as well.

Being a Christian is worth the price, but it isn't an easy path to follow by any means.

For what it is worth... I have found the promises in this chapter to always hold true in my life. If/When I give freely to others and trust fully in God to take care of me He always has come through. "A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap." is a very apt description of the "returns" I have gotten for giving freely to others of the blessings He has already bestowed upon me.

As for "interesting" discussion, the first part of the chapter dealing with the idea that the "Spirit" of the law puts people and purity of heart above conformity to the "letter" of the law is very revealing of the Nature and Character of God.

Jesus starts out showing that God is far more flexible than many people think in terms of legalistic rigidity and then goes on to show that God is far more demanding in His expectations in terms of genuine character and heart change/purity than even seems possible to meet.

The higher law He wants to write onto our hearts has nothing to do with jumping through hoops or checking boxes and everything to do with radical life changing, mind and heart reshaping of ourselves into creatures of abounding love and mercy. Grown up children who have matured into fully functioning reflections of HIM by free will choice rather than remaining always young children who must obey for our own good without full understanding the reasons behind the rules.

The idea that the "Law" was/is a tool to help walk a path to maturity rather than an end point in and of itself was am important one in my life in terms of my personal growth and understanding of God's ultimate nature and plans for me. One that has greatly shaped who I am and who I am still working toward becoming.



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lotus dweller
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xldh wrote:
For me this chapter contains the essence of what it means to be christian. A very good read indeed. Thanks for taking the time to share.

I'm not clear about the essence of Christianity - but this "love your enemies" stuff looks like both social dynamite and perhaps a path to a very different way of living. It makes the concept of a "Christian nation" oxymoronic in that a nation is defined by it's boundaries and Jesus here appear to be pointing at a way of living that discards the normal boundaries we have.

For me this area of Luke seems so different to ?Paul saying, "Love your enemies and God will heap burning coals on their heads". Jesus here seems to be saying "Love them and want good things for them".

"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them.", seems like it could have been followed by "And if you love your enemies while imagining that God will heap burning coals upon their heads, what credit is that to you? Even sinners will force themselves to love their enemies if doing so will have them tortured."

(This bit of Paul was what convinced me that Biblical Christianity wasn't good.)
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Josiah Fiscus
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Pinook wrote:
xldh wrote:
For me this chapter contains the essence of what it means to be christian. A very good read indeed. Thanks for taking the time to share.

I'm not clear about the essence of Christianity - but this "love your enemies" stuff looks like both social dynamite and perhaps a path to a very different way of living. It makes the concept of a "Christian nation" oxymoronic in that a nation is defined by it's boundaries and Jesus here appear to be pointing at a very different way of living.


Totally agree. The concept of a "nation under God" died with the coming of Christianity. This is why it is so dangerous for Christians to support wars and such: you may be fighting against your own brothers and sisters in Christ! Without God himself saying who and how to attack as he did for the Hebrews in the OT, it is very hard to ever see yourself as "the good guys" in a particular conflict. War is almost always a matter of competing desires with no clear moral high ground. It scares me when people are so sure they have it.

Pinook wrote:

For me this area of Luke seems so different to ?Paul saying, "Love your enemies and God will heap burning coals on their heads". Jesus here seems to be saying "Love them and want good things for them".

"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them.", seems like it could have been followed by "And if you love your enemies while imagining that God will heap burning coals upon their heads, what credit is that to you? Even sinners will force themselves to love their enemies if doing so will have them tortured."

(This bit of Paul was what convinced me that Biblical Christianity wasn't good.)


You seem pretty sure that "heap burning coals on their heads" is a negative thing. This is strange, because the majority of commentators seem a lot less sure than you. I've heard everything from "it's the warm blessing of the spirit, hearkening back to the purifying coals in Isaiah" to "it's stirring the coals to rekindle the fire in their hearts", etc. Some people do see the burning coals thing as pure punishment, as you do, but I agree this doesn't seem to fit as well with what Jesus says here. So I think it's likely not that. The phrase doesn't seem well-understood today.
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James Bentley
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Off-topic question:

I'm posting this question here because I didn't want to start a debate or any kind of flame-war any where, but I need some advice and felt this was an okay place to start...Please forgive me if I hi-jack this thread for just a moment.

I'm looking for an accuratebible that reads more like a "story" or "novel"...It would need to be in a chronological order and (hopefully) "easy to read"...I'm really not looking for a paraphrased bible.

I've checked out "The Message" and I'm really unsure about that one. I've also looked at "The Story" but several reviews stated it was more of a paraphrase and left certain portions of the bible out altogether. (?)

Anyway, I'm hoping someone can offer some suggestions. Again, please forgive me for hi-jacking this thread...

Thanks,
jrbentley
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Josiah Fiscus
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Since not all of the Bible is written like a novel or story in the original language, I'm not sure how you could possibly have something that reads like one but also doesn't paraphrase. Moreover, the Bible is not in chronological order. What are your concerns with The Message (other than that it is a paraphrase)?
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James Bentley
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happyjosiah wrote:
Since not all of the Bible is written like a novel or story in the original language, I'm not sure how you could possibly have something that reads like one but also doesn't paraphrase. Moreover, the Bible is not in chronological order. What are your concerns with The Message (other than that it is a paraphrase)?


Thank you for the input! I see the point you make, so I may have to decide on another bible altogether.

As far as The Message goes, I was only concerned about it being a paraphrase.

Again, thanks! God bless you and yours...
jrbentley
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True Blue Jon
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There are chronological Bibles. My wife is reading through one with the NIV translation. Just type in chronological bible into Amazon and you'll see plenty. It doesn't read like a novel though. For that, you'd need a paraphrase.
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Here is Proverbs' coals - they seem to me to be one's social enemies feeling infuriated by one's benevolence.
19 Putting confidence in an unreliable person is like chewing with a toothache or walking on a broken foot. 20 Singing cheerful songs to a person whose heart is heavy is as bad as stealing someone's jacket in cold weather or rubbing salt in a wound. 21 If your enemies are hungry, give them food to eat. If they are thirsty, give them water to drink. 22 You will heap burning coals on their heads, and the LORD will reward you. 23 As surely as a wind from the north brings rain, so a gossiping tongue causes anger! 24 It is better to live alone in the corner of an attic than with a contentious wife in a lovely home.

Here is Romans 12:17-21
7 Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. 18 If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. 19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." 20 No, "if your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink; for by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads." 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Some 40 years after I last read this I'd agree that this doesn't appear to be about God torturing anyone but rather one's social enemies torturing themselves - the more I hear about small village life the more I can imagine the original audiences of Proverbs and Romans having many petty disputes and much acrimony with their neigbours. Fortunately us moderns don't even have contentious wives.
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Pinook wrote:
Here is Proverbs' coals - they seem to me to be one's social enemies feeling infuriated by one's benevolence.


Have you seen Les Miserables? Javert (the antagonist) cannot bear the mercy he has been shown. I tend to think this is the meaning of coals on anyone's head. It's not a prescription of action, but a description of the result.
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Lynette
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jrbentley wrote:
Off-topic question:

I'm posting this question here because I didn't want to start a debate or any kind of flame-war any where, but I need some advice and felt this was an okay place to start...Please forgive me if I hi-jack this thread for just a moment.

I'm looking for an accuratebible that reads more like a "story" or "novel"...It would need to be in a chronological order and (hopefully) "easy to read"...I'm really not looking for a paraphrased bible.

I've checked out "The Message" and I'm really unsure about that one. I've also looked at "The Story" but several reviews stated it was more of a paraphrase and left certain portions of the bible out altogether. (?)

Anyway, I'm hoping someone can offer some suggestions. Again, please forgive me for hi-jacking this thread...

Thanks,
jrbentley


I am going to second Jon...

I have a One Year Chronological Bible I just love. It is an NIV or similar though, and thus doesn't read like a "novel". However it does have some interesting history and background information in between the "books".

I wouldn't give up my King James version for anything, but this is a great second bible to have.

Might I also suggest you check out one of the many Parallel Bibles. That way the "Paraphrased" versions are right next to the more traditional versions. That can be very helpful for cross referencing when you hit a bit of "paraphrase" that feels "off".

My mother has a Parallel Bible with 4 translations side by side. Very VERY helpful to have around in my opinion.

So she often reads her "Message" bible but then hits the Parallel when she gets to a bit she "questions" or wants to do deeper into.

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Lynette
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Pinook wrote:


Here is Romans 12:17-21
7 Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. 18 If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. 19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." 20 No, "if your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink; for by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads." 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.


Ideally those "coals" are supposed to help them repent and change in THIS LIFE... so that they can know the Joy of God. It is in hopes of helping them find the ultimate Joy of life that you wish upon them coals of shame that inspire self reflection and repentance. Just like the ones that brought you to the realization of how much evil you had done an throw yourself on the mercy of God.

That is part of how you overcome evil with good. By living as Jesus lived you inspire people to change, just as He inspired YOU to change.

I have always read that to say... you live as YOU have been commanded to and leave the rest to God. If you do, you might even end up being the "living reflection" of Christ that helps these people find God for themselves.

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Steve e^(iπ)+1=0
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Pinook wrote:
Here is Proverbs' coals - they seem to me to be one's social enemies feeling infuriated by one's benevolence.
19 Putting confidence in an unreliable person is like chewing with a toothache or walking on a broken foot. 20 Singing cheerful songs to a person whose heart is heavy is as bad as stealing someone's jacket in cold weather or rubbing salt in a wound. 21 If your enemies are hungry, give them food to eat. If they are thirsty, give them water to drink. 22 You will heap burning coals on their heads, and the LORD will reward you. 23 As surely as a wind from the north brings rain, so a gossiping tongue causes anger! 24 It is better to live alone in the corner of an attic than with a contentious wife in a lovely home.

Here is Romans 12:17-21
7 Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. 18 If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. 19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." 20 No, "if your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink; for by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads." 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Some 40 years after I last read this I'd agree that this doesn't appear to be about God torturing anyone but rather one's social enemies torturing themselves - the more I hear about small village life the more I can imagine the original audiences of Proverbs and Romans having many petty disputes and much acrimony with their neigbours. Fortunately us moderns don't even have contentious wives.

The other comments give a good feel for what Paul & the Psalmist are trying to say, but it goes much deeper. What's up with the burning coal specifically? Bringing both passages into context will flesh it out better. Starting in Rom 12:1, Paul pleads, "Present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God." (love God) and continues with sacrificial love for your neighbors. The imagery of the sacrifice I think is the key to the burning coal. If you go back to Isiah, you find him in the presence of God and he is undone because he's a man of unclean lips. An angel takes a coal from the altar and touches his lips with it and says, “Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin atoned for.” Then in Isaiah 47 & 48 the imagery of coal & fire stands in the place of judgement. The burning coal represents both cleansing (and forgiveness) and judgement. By bringing it into a passage concerning love, Paul binds up the facets character of God in one image: His is Love; He is Holy; He is Merciful; and He is Judge. Luke does the same through the narrative in these two chapters.

Paul encourages Christians to sacrifice even their own benefits as Christ did to make God's character clear. By starting with a call for sacrifice, the Christian should effectively become this coal. To bring about revelation even as Peter saw with Christ. By loving our enemy we show clearly God's love. While glimpsing his love, our enemies might see his holiness and then his mercy. In this way they might be undone in their sins and ask for forgiveness or be burnt like chaff because of it. God's judgement can be viewed as passive in this image: simply because of the majesty of his love and holiness will we know either his mercy or judgement.

Pinook wrote:
(This bit of Paul was what convinced me that Biblical Christianity wasn't good.)
Thanks for your honesty and thoughtfulness behind your posts. Too often this particular issue is just parroted vapidly from Bill Maher or Douglas Adams (ok, so maybe cleverly quipped from him, but still without much thought by the quipper).
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Lynette
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mister lunch wrote:
Pinook wrote:
Here is Proverbs' coals - they seem to me to be one's social enemies feeling infuriated by one's benevolence.


Have you seen Les Miserables? Javert (the antagonist) cannot bear the mercy he has been shown. I tend to think this is the meaning of coals on anyone's head. It's not a prescription of action, but a description of the result.


Yes Javert always breaks my heart... because he not only cannot accept Mercy he cannot accept the forgiveness he has been offered.

I know a few real life Javerts. So sure of their "justice" they end up being actually cruel and unjust and ultimately that same judgement comes back to condemn them even in their own eyes. And yet even then... often they choose condemnation rather than to bend to the power of Mercy and Forgiveness.

So very sad.
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quozl wrote:
One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and his disciples began to pick some heads of grain, rub them in their hands and eat the kernels. Some of the Pharisees asked, "Why are you doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?"

Jesus answered them, "Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God, and taking the consecrated bread, he ate what is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions." Then Jesus said to them, "The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."


The Pharisees knew the rules, but both David and Jesus knew God - big difference.
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Quote:
One Sabbath Jesus... and his disciples began to pick some heads of grain, ...and eat the kernels. Some of the Pharisees asked, "Why are you doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?"

Jesus answered them, "Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? ...


Seems a bit of a snarky way to say, "we're harvesting grain on the Sabbath, because we're starving".

Unless of course they weren't starving, just a bit peckish. In that case... what the heck Jesus? Is it OK for me to eat a side of ham because I had a cravin'? Are you saying that its OK to bend the rules when they're inconvenient?*

*Based off my actual actions I'm, unfortunately, totally down with that

Quote:
On another Sabbath... a man was there whose right hand was shriveled. The Pharisees...watched him closely to see if he would heal on the Sabbath....

Then Jesus said to them, "I ask you, which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy it?"


Odd... I'm fairly certain that even back then that it was generally understood by the Rabbi's that saving a life is way more important than keeping the Sabbath.

Of course... no one's life is in immediate danger here, so this seems borderline at best. I suppose you could argue that failure to treat could lead to life-threatening problems down the road.
Quote:

One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God. When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles: Simon (whom he named Peter), his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called the Zealot, Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.


Thanks for killing the drama, Luke.

clap. clap. clap.

---

Also - Apostle. According to the Greek translations I see online, it means Messenger** - or Emissary. I got excited when I read that, because then I wondered if Jesus was sort of calling them Angels (Malakim - messenger - in Hebrew). Nope, he's calling them messengers, Shaleakh - which is what you'd call your courier back then. So... yeah.

Quote:
Those troubled by impure spirits were cured,


Because as we all know, diseases are called by impure spirits... damn those demons.

It pretty much took Europe another millenia and a half to get over this idea. Thanks Jesus.

OK - snark aside this was a popular belief among Jews at the time, as well as the idea of healing through exorcism - so what we see here is not an out-there idea in the second temple period.

And I suppose I really can't mock THAT much as these traditions have made its way to modern times - stripped of their original meaning. My babies crib had a red ribbon tied on it to protect them from evil spirits, and a circle of demonic protection was made at my wedding (with the requisite loud noise to complete the ritual), so I guess these ideas die hard.

Quote:
"Blessed are you who are poor,
for yours is the kingdom of God.
Blessed are you who hunger now,
for you will be satisfied.
Blessed are you who weep now,
for you will laugh.
Blessed are you when people hate you,
when they exclude you and insult you
and reject your name as evil,
because of the Son of Man.


An elegant summation of his philosophy - look to eternity, and those that worry about their soul rather than their wealth and comfort, will thrive. The poor should be respected, not denigrated.

Quote:
"But woe to you who are rich,
for you have already received your comfort.
Woe to you who are well fed now,
for you will go hungry.
Woe to you who laugh now,
for you will mourn and weep.
Woe to you when everyone speaks well of you,
for that is how their ancestors treated the false prophets
.

Yet there is such a thing as Prosperity Christians - who believe that Earthly wealth is a good thing that reflects your faith. Maybe this passage is blacked out in their churches?

---

I thought of Churchill's quote when I read the bolded part - "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. "

A prophet who brings only glad tidings isn't doing God's work.

Quote:
If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you.


Give, give, give - until it hurts. Interesting theory, but not striking a chord with me. Or modern society apparently, as larceny is still looked down upon two thousand years later.

--

Not getting the connection fully between the opening of the passage, and the money quote.

The idea here is old - Hillel said it a half-century before Jesus as - That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the whole Torah; the rest is commentary. Go and study it.

And just because I like quoting Hillel, I'll throw in another favorite:
If I am not for myself, then who will be for me? And if I am only for myself, then what am I? And if not now, when?

OK. I'll stop quoting now.

Anyway - is Jesus saying here the above are illustrations of the saying? If your neighbor wants your coat, give him the shirt too - because you want the shirt?

I get the general point - but I'm missing something here.
Quote:

If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them.


Another great sentiment - its easy to be good when its easy. Can you be - or do good - when its hard? Of course he keeps going from here.

Maybe thats why all modern Jews follow Hillel rather than Jesus. Hillel understood the need for brevity in a clever, pithy illustration of moral code.

---

Quote:
He also told them this parable: "Can the blind lead the blind? Will they not both fall into a pit? The student is not above the teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like their teacher.

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?


OK... apparently this is the section where Luke just dumps on us all of Jesus's best parables and sayings in one spot. Thats just lazy, Luke.

And while I note the hypocrisy of telling someone not to do X when you do the same yourself... a sin is a sin, whether or not you commit it yourself. Perhaps in telling your neighbor from refraining, you are helping to remind yourself to do the same.

Quote:
Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?


If I were Christian, I'd probably emblazon this on a banner, and put it outside my church. Of course that Church would probably be full of snobby people who think they're better than other Christian's because they belong to a church that emphasis this, and don't realize the signs really for them.

I think that just came out gibberish. And on that note, off to bed.
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Todd Rowland
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dtolman wrote:

Odd... I'm fairly certain that even back then that it was generally understood by the Rabbi's that saving a life is way more important than keeping the Sabbath.


Depends. There were some that were so "by the law" that no, they wouldn't. Those were the ones he was mainly going after, the ones who had made the law into the god, rather than what the law was meant to do (bring one closer to God).


Quote:

Quote:
If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you.


Give, give, give - until it hurts. Interesting theory, but not striking a chord with me. Or modern society apparently, as larceny is still looked down upon two thousand years later.


Kinda missed the point on this one. There were two things going on in that statement. The first about the coat was an appeal to the downtrodden to turn the tables on their oppressors. If someone took your coat, and then you gave your tunic/shirt, you'd be naked - remember it was all one-piece long robes. There is great societal shame in that, but oddly the shame of the person who made you naked would be worse. Since they started it by taking something that didn't belong, your coat, it all falls to them.

It's very similar to "turn the other cheek". It's not at all about just pacifism. It was about shaking up the entire Roman power structure and putting a Roman in a no-win situation due to their firmly held belief that the right hand was the "hand of power".
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