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Subject: What would you have done? rss

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Lars Eivind
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Poll
What would you have done?
Kept the hand thinking "yay!".
Kept the hand thinking "for the fun of it".
Mulligan thinking "had been fun, but I need an ETR ICE vs that criminal".
Mulligan thinking "no way, had mulligan this hand vs any runner".
      119 answers
Poll created by manoflore


Greetings,

this post is about an interesting starting hand, and the I'm woundering what you would have done in this situation. This is not meant as a very serious post, but im just curious of your opinions.

This evening my neighbour came over for a game. He was the criminal ID Gabriel and I was Jinteki: Replicating Perfection (the new ID). My Jinteki deck in this scenario consisted of approximately:

10 Agendas (3 Fetal AI, the rest 2 points)
18 ICE (below average with ETR i guess)
3 Snare!
3 Adoins campaign
3 PAD Campaign
2 Melange
3 Hegde fund
2 Junebug
3 other operations
2 other assets

(lets pressume that I/you do not know anything about your opponent regarding playing style or deck style)

My starting hand was the following:
2 Snare!
2 PAD Campaign
1 Adonis campaign

What would you have done - keeping the hand or taking a mulligan? (please answer the pool, and feel free to discuss).

To spice up the discussion, let me remind you that criminals very likely got Account Siphon in their deck.

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Magnus Poitier
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Playing as Jinteki, for me, equals going haywire and playing more chaotically as opposed to another deck.

So I would've kept the hand, installed a Pad Campaign and taken 2 credits for starting hand.

Then laugh maniacally when he runs HQ and gets a snare

Then get all sad when he opens with Account siphon >
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Richard Linnell
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I'd most likely mulligan to put the Snares back in R&D where they belong.
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Ben Finkel
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alphasyndrome wrote:
Playing as Jinteki, for me, equals going haywire and playing more chaotically as opposed to another deck.

So I would've kept the hand, installed a Pad Campaign and taken 2 credits for starting hand.

Then laugh maniacally when he runs HQ and gets a snare

Then get all sad when he opens with Account siphon >


I think I'd install both PADs and the Adonis. If he opens with Account Siphon, when he makes a successful run I'll rez the Adonis and PAD, leaving me with 0 credits. Then he'll trash a Snare! for free, but at least I'll have 4 credits next turn and he'll have to live with a wasted Account Siphon.
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B C Z
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Azeltir wrote:
alphasyndrome wrote:
Playing as Jinteki, for me, equals going haywire and playing more chaotically as opposed to another deck.

So I would've kept the hand, installed a Pad Campaign and taken 2 credits for starting hand.

Then laugh maniacally when he runs HQ and gets a snare

Then get all sad when he opens with Account siphon >


I think I'd install both PADs and the Adonis. If he opens with Account Siphon, when he makes a successful run I'll rez the Adonis and PAD, leaving me with 0 credits. Then he'll trash a Snare! for free, but at least I'll have 4 credits next turn and he'll have to live with a wasted Account Siphon.


You're going to get a draw too, so it kind of depends on that draw.

I'd be more inclined to Adonis/PAD/Credit.

Against an Account Siphon, I can rez Adonis/PAD and leave nothing a single credit in the coffers, in which case the Runner has a 25% shot at spending 4 credits to burn a PAD (fine by me), 50% shot at neutering one of the Snares and 25% shot at whatever the extra card was, which obviously wasn't an ICE because I'd ICE up HQ (against Gabriel) and R&D (against anything else) if the card draw were such. They're not going to pick to gain 2 credits for the privilege of two free tags.

A naked (non Account Siphon) run into HQ is going to be Snare!d (cost: 4 credits) and then most likely Gabriel will spend off the tag and draw back up, which burns their first turn. I'd just rez the PAD with the leftover 2 credits, leaving Adonis for a start of turn 3 rez.

Play kind of depends on the first draw - but not taking a mulligan seems like a clear choice here.
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Lou Lessing
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Keep.

Adonis-Pad-Credit, probably, depending on the draw. Hope it's not an agenda, that gets hairy.

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Andrew Bartosh

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brisingre wrote:
Keep.

Adonis-Pad-Credit, probably, depending on the draw. Hope it's not an agenda, that gets hairy.

 
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Martin Presley
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I would probably keep it, just to practice playing strange/suboptimal hands. If it was a tournament, I would mulligan it though.
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Lou Lessing
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Apart from fun factor, I think that hand is 50+ percentile. It has money and no agendas, that's two thirds of the dream of "Money, no agendas, and ice."
 
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B C Z
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hoobajoo wrote:
I would probably keep it, just to practice playing strange/suboptimal hands. If it was a tournament, I would mulligan it though.


Your Mulligan Draw:

PSF, PSF, PSF, PriReq, PriReq

Good Luck.
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Mike Aubuchon
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byronczimmer wrote:
hoobajoo wrote:
I would probably keep it, just to practice playing strange/suboptimal hands. If it was a tournament, I would mulligan it though.


Your Mulligan Draw:

PSF, PSF, PSF, PriReq, PriReq

Good Luck.


That's always the trouble with mulligans, though, right? The questionable ones are the ones that can definitely get better but can definitely get much worse. I think it's unlikely that you'll find yourself THAT much worse off.

That said, I think install-install-install is a reasonable opening in some situations with this identity anyway, so keeping the two snares in hand is probably fine. If you draw an ice as one of your first two, you can ice up R&D and maybe get your opponent to walk into a snare in your hand, which seems fine.
 
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Steven Tu
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What about pad/pad/cred? Rezzing two pads and keeping Adonis in hand means I may lose an Adonis, but I consider that alright when the runner, gabe, comes back into my hand ill have creds waiting for him to trip a snare. Or he may run the pads and lose all his money.

If I'm gonna lose stuff I might as well make him pay maximum for it. If he hits a snare, ah well. I hopefully should be able to drop an ice next turn, with a draw? And maybe save up for the Adonis and ice.
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Matt Wilson
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byronczimmer wrote:
hoobajoo wrote:
I would probably keep it, just to practice playing strange/suboptimal hands. If it was a tournament, I would mulligan it though.


Your Mulligan Draw:

PSF, PSF, PSF, PriReq, PriReq

Good Luck.


All joking aside the last time I played Corp I mulligan-d from a poor but playable hand into PriReq, PriReq, Atlas, Hadrian's, ChiLo City Grid. On turn 2 I drew the third PriReq. Be careful what you mulligan for !
 
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Theo Seretis
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So out of all the people that replied no one would choose to install a Snare in a server?
I would install Pad-Adonis-Snare, and wait until he makes a move.
Like the others said, rez Pad and Adonis on acoount Siphon.
If he doesn't play Account Siphon and runs even better.He hits a Snare and you pay, he hits anything else, and he either pays to trash, leaving him sort on money, or you get to keep the card and he goes for your remotes.
Either way I would keep it.But I would be hoping for a precognition to arrive very soon.
 
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Jay Killjoy
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solidhavok wrote:
I'd most likely mulligan to put the Snares back in R&D where they belong.


I'd much rather have 2 Snares in my hand against Gabe!
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Aaron Hedegaard
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Tuism wrote:
What about pad/pad/cred? Rezzing two pads and keeping Adonis in hand means I may lose an Adonis, but I consider that alright when the runner, gabe, comes back into my hand ill have creds waiting for him to trip a snare. Or he may run the pads and lose all his money.

If I'm gonna lose stuff I might as well make him pay maximum for it. If he hits a snare, ah well. I hopefully should be able to drop an ice next turn, with a draw? And maybe save up for the Adonis and ice.


I like pad/pad/credit as well, assuming I don't draw ice. If Gabe runs your hand with an Account Siphon and you rez 2 pads as a response, that still leaves him with a pretty weak Account Siphon in exchange for 2 tags.

I'm also assuming that, unless Gabe is terrible, he is running his Account Siphon on click 1, which means he has clicks left to run and trash the assets you just rezzed. If you just rezzed an Adonis, better say your goodbyes since you just paid 4 to rez an unprotected asset with a trash cost of 3, giving him a slight credit advantage and ruining your income source for next turn. The PADs will likely sit on the table to torment him and give you the credits you need to trigger your Snares next turn.
 
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Matt
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When I saw the question, I thought 'I'm keeping that'. Most of the answers in the thread explain why.

I think pad/pad/credit works fine. Against which a criminal is unlikely to run an immediate account syphon because they can see you have ways to spend your creds.

So what does that leave? The risk of multiple agendas on top of R&D (bit it could also be snare) and a criminal looking to run against notorious trap-monger Jinteki with two unprotected remote servers and two snares in play. That looks like the kind of situation a Jinteki player is happy with.
 
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Evan
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I would definitely also keep, but don't think it's a very good hand. Even if he sets off one or more Snares, the runner will be able to trash your Pads and Adonises almost as quickly as you can rez them--possibly quicker, if he has a Bank Job (or even an Easy Mark). By the time the dust settles, say by turn 4 at the latest, you may have gained a modest click advantage (and hopefully drawn some ice and not lost several agendas from R&D), but your economy will be in a shambles for the rest of the game.
 
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Lars Eivind
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Nice to see som many replies on the pool and by posts. You guys have a lot of good thoughts. I learned quite a bit reading your views.

I think it's kewl that the distribution of answers is mainly in 3 of the 4 alternatives - seams like people got quite different views of the scenario, and that's good. Any "given" case is somewhat boring to discuss.

As a last comment: I kept the hand, thinking "for the fun of it". My draw was a junebug, I installed a Adonis, a PAD and took a cred.

 
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Frank Brooks
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Nobody's talked about Bank Job. I suppose that comes with the territory of playing Jinteki though. Even with no Account Siphon, install Bank Job, run HQ, hit a Snare!(?), has 1 card, run on RS for Bank Job, draw.

Either way, it feels like no ice to block HQ will hurt you economically in the long term. This is probably why I don't play Jinteki, too many stressful opening hands like this.
 
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Lou Lessing
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Yeah, Playing Jinteki vs Criminal, Bank Job's just how they get you. There's no playing around it, you need pads for money, you need remotes to win, you don't play enough ice to ice all your remotes.
 
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Andrew Bartosh

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BoShek wrote:
Nobody's talked about Bank Job. I suppose that comes with the territory of playing Jinteki though. Even with no Account Siphon, install Bank Job, run HQ, hit a Snare!(?), has 1 card, run on RS for Bank Job, draw.

Either way, it feels like no ice to block HQ will hurt you economically in the long term. This is probably why I don't play Jinteki, too many stressful opening hands like this.


Honestly, I'm a little less convinced on Bank Job currently and wouldn't be surprised to see it start falling off. I'm just not seeing that many corp decks that are putting themselves in situations where Bank Job is worthwhile.
 
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Lou Lessing
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It's SO good when it's good though... I have a hard time cutting it, I play one or two, keep 'em honest.
 
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Andrew Bartosh

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brisingre wrote:
It's SO good when it's good though... I have a hard time cutting it, I play one or two, keep 'em honest.


*nods* It is a fully legit decision, and also meta dependent. I've cut it when playing locally because, well, yeah. I'm just not seeing opportunities to use it.

It is definitely an amazing card. It is just one that can be an amazing hit or a dud depending on the decks you run into.
 
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Wes Holland

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Keep.

ONLY with RP identity though. No way would I keep this with PE.

PAD/PAD/Cred is best.

Amusingly what would you do as a runner against this action? Corp ... installs no ICE, two servers, and gets a credit? Against Gabe? Has to be holding at least one Snare. Take the chance and run HQ? Or run R&D, as they definitely have no agendas in hand in this situation. Depends on my hand. If I kept the hand and didn't mulligan, it's likely I actually want the cards I started with. If I mulliganed, I'm more likely to run into Obvious Snare is Obvious.

Honestly I'd probably run R&D and then hit those remotes...
 
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