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Subject: How is this legal/possible? rss

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Christopher Dearlove
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Alaren wrote:
This is why I still put checks in my mailbox like a caveman. I have heard too many stories about auto-drafts turning into overage charges which proceed to steamroll budgets and credit scores alike. The "convenience" of automatic payments is not worth the risk.


In the UK, a direct debit (what we call these things) from a bank account is reasonably safe. From a credit card it's dangerous, don't do that.
 
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Alaren wrote:
This is why I still put checks in my mailbox like a caveman. I have heard too many stories about auto-drafts turning into overage charges which proceed to steamroll budgets and credit scores alike. The "convenience" of automatic payments is not worth the risk.

Paying online is not the same thing as starting an automatic payment. I log in every month and make payments for all my utilities and don't even allow them to save the billing information, let alone automatically charge it.
 
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David desJardins
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Dearlove wrote:
In the UK, a direct debit (what we call these things) from a bank account is reasonably safe. From a credit card it's dangerous, don't do that.


This seems really strange to me. In the US, any credit card payment is 100% safe---if there's a problem you just call your credit card issuer and contest the charges. They don't have your money yet, so it's not your problem, it's theirs! Whereas, if someone debits money from your bank account, you can call and complain, but you still don't have your money!
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damiangerous wrote:
Alaren wrote:
This is why I still put checks in my mailbox like a caveman. I have heard too many stories about auto-drafts turning into overage charges which proceed to steamroll budgets and credit scores alike. The "convenience" of automatic payments is not worth the risk.

Paying online is not the same thing as starting an automatic payment. I log in every month and make payments for all my utilities and don't even allow them to save the billing information, let alone automatically charge it.


I set up auto-payments online, but I can cancel them and they get paid by the bank, not debited by the receiver. I also have auto-payments that come out that are debits from the companies, but that's more like auto-insurance which I can't not pay anyway, not XBox Live.
 
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Christopher Dearlove
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Dearlove wrote:
In the UK, a direct debit (what we call these things) from a bank account is reasonably safe. From a credit card it's dangerous, don't do that.


This seems really strange to me. In the US, any credit card payment is 100% safe---if there's a problem you just call your credit card issuer and contest the charges. They don't have your money yet, so it's not your problem, it's theirs! Whereas, if someone debits money from your bank account, you can call and complain, but you still don't have your money!


The problem is that a direct debit (that's a continuing charge, e.g. monthly, quarterly or annually) on an account you can cancel. A direct debit on a credit card you can't cancel, only the person taking the money can. (I have no idea who conned whom into accepting this as the case.)

Single direct payments to e.g. Amazon, sure, other way round. Credit card (reasonably) safe, debit card crazy. And for some items there's an even stronger argument for credit cards, as you can claim from the credit card company as well as the vendor in case of some problems.
 
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David desJardins
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Dearlove wrote:
A direct debit on a credit card you can't cancel


I don't know what you mean by "you can't cancel". If you tell them to stop charging you and they don't, then you can contest the charge as unauthorized and the credit card company has to reverse it. It's one brief phone call. Maybe the consumer protection laws in the UK are very different, but I'd be surprised.
 
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Dearlove wrote:
A direct debit on a credit card you can't cancel


I don't know what you mean by "you can't cancel". If you tell them to stop charging you and they don't, then you can contest the charge as unauthorized and the credit card company has to reverse it. It's one brief phone call. Maybe the consumer protection laws in the UK are very different, but I'd be surprised.


What happens if the merchant counter disputes the charge and says you did authorize the payment?
 
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David desJardins
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By coincidence, a good article on what generally happens:

Disputing a Charge on Your Credit Card
 
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DaviddesJ wrote:
By coincidence, a good article on what generally happens:

Disputing a Charge on Your Credit Card


What I read from it is your are completely at the mercy of your credit card company. If you think they merchant is trying to cheat you why would you think they would not produce false evidence that you authorized the charge? How are you going to counter that evidence. The potential for abuse seems huge.
 
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Dearlove wrote:
A direct debit on a credit card you can't cancel


I don't know what you mean by "you can't cancel". If you tell them to stop charging you and they don't, then you can contest the charge as unauthorized and the credit card company has to reverse it. It's one brief phone call. Maybe the consumer protection laws in the UK are very different, but I'd be surprised.


Prepare to be surprised.

http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/ombudsman...

That does indicate that I made an error when I referred to a charge on your credit card you can't cancel as a direct debit, it's actually called a continuous payment authority. But the detail I indicated is there - a charge that relies on the taker of money to cancel it. (So don't do it.)
 
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sbauer9 wrote:
What I read from it is your are completely at the mercy of your credit card company. If you think they merchant is trying to cheat you why would you think they would not produce false evidence that you authorized the charge? How are you going to counter that evidence. The potential for abuse seems huge.


If you think that Microsoft is going to forge evidence so that they can collect $5.99 from you then I think you need to borrow the tinfoil hat from one of the other RSP posters.
 
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Dearlove wrote:
That does indicate that I made an error when I referred to a charge on your credit card you can't cancel as a direct debit, it's actually called a continuous payment authority. But the detail I indicated is there - a charge that relies on the taker of money to cancel it. (So don't do it.)


All the case here says is that if you claim you canceled 11 months ago and didn't complain or contest the charges for any of those intervening months, then, duh, you're going to have a hard time convincing anyone that you actually canceled the charges. The case where you contest the unauthorized charges as soon as they occur is going to go a lot better for you.
 
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• Problem: Can't login to my router
• Analyst > Hello JARRED, Thank you for contacting Comcast Live Chat Support. My name is Analyst. Please give me one moment to review your information.
• JARRED > My Issue: Can't login to my router
• Analyst > Thank you for waiting. I hope you are well. I look forward to helping you.
• Analyst > I understand that you would like to access your router's interface. I know how important it is to be able to access and manage our wireless settings.
• Analyst > No worries, Jarred. I'd be more than willing to assist you with your concerns today.
• Analyst > May I please know the router you're using?
• JARRED > what do you mean?
• Analyst > May I please know the make and model of the router you are currently using?
• JARRED > It's the gateway provided by Comcast. Arris TG862G
• Analyst > Thank you very much.
• Analyst > Is this the first time you've tried to access your router's interface or you were able to access it before?
• JARRED > I just can't login. It keeps saying Authentication failed
• JARRED > first time
• Analyst > I see. Thank you for that information.
• Analyst > Please go to http://10.0.0.1 to access your router's interface and use these log in details: - Login Name (case sensitive): admin - Login Password (case sensitive): password
• JARRED > that worked
• JARRED > what do you know about the problems with xbox 360 not connecting while everything else connects fine?
• Analyst > Glad to know it worked Jarred.
• Analyst > May I know if you have tried the Network Key found on your router as the password?
• JARRED > I haven't done that
• Analyst > Oh I see. May I know if your other devices can connect to the wireless connection?
• Analyst > How is it going there?
• JARRED > still there?
• Analyst > Yes I am still here.
• Analyst > How did it go?
• JARRED > several devices are connected. Phones, computers etc. Only the xbox 360 won't connect. I looked online and apparently it's a common issue with the firmware on the router
• Analyst > May I please know the error message you're getting when you connect your XBox?
• JARRED > Incorrect Wireless Password
• JARRED > which is typical for this issue based on what I'm reading. I've verified the password several times and I've used it to connect other devices even today
• Analyst > I understand. Thank you for checking.
• Analyst > You may set up your wireless password while you're on your router's interface.
• Analyst > You may then try to connect your XBox if you would now be able to connect using your new password.
• Analyst > May I know if you're still there? I am still here to help you and provide you support with your Comcast Services.
• JARRED > Yes I'm here
• JARRED > I'm not sure what you're telling me to do. The password works fine for everything else. Are you aware of specific connection issues regarding the xbox consoles?
• Analyst > It is possible that there may be specific settings on your XBox console that needs to be configurated. If you want, you can call our XBox XFinity Department so they can provide more information and details on how to configure the device for wireless connectivity.
• Analyst > You may reach them at 800-469-9269
• JARRED > ok
• Analyst > I will be leaving a note on the account regarding your concerns today to give the next representative a heads up.
• JARRED > My concern is that the comcast hardware provided does not support Microsoft xbox hardware
• JARRED > I believe this is a widely known issue and Comcast needs to update/fix their firmware so that we can use the service for which we're paying
• Analyst > I understand where you're coming from Jarred and we will be updated Arris regarding this so as all devices will be able to recognize the network broadcasted by the device.
• JARRED > When is that happening?
• Analyst > Updates will be made as soon as possible. It would be best if you can set up your own password first and then try if you can be able to connect your XBox device.
• JARRED > I do have my own password for the wireless connection. Wet set that up day 1. It's not the default "password"
• JARRED > Are you saying it should be changed even though it's been working for all other devices?
• Analyst > Thank you for clarifying that you have your own password.
• Analyst > Jarred, it would be best if you can contact XBox regarding this.
• Analyst > I have already left a note on your account as to the error you're currently getting.
• JARRED > Yes I've been told the typical answer is to contact Xbox. However I believe many experts have determined that the problem lies within the router
• JARRED > So please make a note that sending customers to Xbox will not in fact do them any good and might instead lead to additional frustration
• Analyst > Jarred, the firmware updates are done automatically by Arris as we only have access to your internet service / connection and we would need to contact Arris for this.
• JARRED > The router than was leased to me by Comcast/Xfiniti. I would expect the service provider to issue they deal with ARRIS about any recurring significant issues with their products that the provider is leasing out
• Analyst > Jarred, I do understand where you're coming from but manufacturers of different modems are automatically updating their firmwares once it is ready.
• JARRED > The internet is packed full of forum threads on this topic. Apparently some were promised firmware updates several months ago. While I am a new customer it appears that nothing is being done.
• JARRED > I would like Xfiniti to take an active role in ensuring their customers are getting support for ARRIS since they are fully willing to lease out their hardware
• Analyst > We do forward this to Arris but I hope you understand that they are the ones updating the firmware.
• JARRED > Or at some point perhaps Xfiniti will stop leasing out an inferior product and/or warn potential customers that they'll not be able to use their devices with their service.
• Analyst > I understand where you're coming from. It would be best if you can check with XBox settings as well so as to know if there are configurations needed to be done.
• Analyst > It was my pleasure having to interact with you today. Thank you for your patience and cooperation. Do you have any other questions or concerns today? I'd be glad to further assist you.
• JARRED > Thank you for your time
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I replaced her name with Analyst.
 
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jarredscott78 wrote:
I replaced her name with Analyst.


So, was it good for you?
 
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Dearlove wrote:
That does indicate that I made an error when I referred to a charge on your credit card you can't cancel as a direct debit, it's actually called a continuous payment authority. But the detail I indicated is there - a charge that relies on the taker of money to cancel it. (So don't do it.)


All the case here says is that if you claim you canceled 11 months ago and didn't complain or contest the charges for any of those intervening months, then, duh, you're going to have a hard time convincing anyone that you actually canceled the charges. The case where you contest the unauthorized charges as soon as they occur is going to go a lot better for you.


I wasn't talking about the case here, as I clearly referred to in the UK. And to quote from the link I gave you.

Quote:
Unlike a direct debit, however, a continuous-payment authority is not covered by any bank guarantee and can only be cancelled by the business that holds the authority.


And there's more, I just pulled out the key quote.
 
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David desJardins
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Dearlove wrote:
Quote:
Unlike a direct debit, however, a continuous-payment authority is not covered by any bank guarantee and can only be cancelled by the business that holds the authority.


And there's more, I just pulled out the key quote.


My summary of what it says is that in event of a dispute about whether a charge is authorized the issuer is supposed to depend on the preponderance of the evidence.

It gives an example where someone claims that he canceled a recurring charge 11 months ago, paid the bill every month despite the recurring charges, and then claims a year later that he had canceled it and asked for a retroactive refund of all of those payments. He lost.

The case where you cancel a recurring payment and the charger doesn't follow your instructions and keeps charging you, and then when you see this you immediately complain to your credit card issuer, is obviously quite different.

In any case, the only way either the vendor or the credit card issuer could actually collect this money from you is to sue you. It seems wildly implausible to me that anyone, in the US or UK, is going to take you to court over $5.99 (or similar) for a service that you haven't used and that you deny authorizing. I doubt they would even win, but more to the point it would be crazy for them to even try. Especially a big company with reputation issues, like Microsoft.

My link described what happens in the US, and I would believe everywhere. It costs everyone involved more to pursue small charges than they are worth even if they prevail. So they get dropped if you complain, without even an investigation.
 
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