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Subject: Marines too wimpy to take a crap in front of a woman rss

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David desJardins
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Euroncrowseye wrote:
If someone would like to explain exactly where the sexist part of 'if they meet the standards, they can do the job, but physiology would suggest not many will.' is?


You're looking in the wrong place.

You edited your posting, after my response, and deleted the most sexist elements of it. So it's no longer really possible to discuss how sexist it was.

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In my view, this is more a move aimed at winning votes than enhancing actual combat effectiveness.


Why can't it be aimed at improving society, more than either of those things? If it's a wash on combat effectiveness, then it's a big win for treating people equally.

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The point I was trying to make was that if you have a job where physical characteristics play a large role, you will generally have more men who are suited to it.


One could make that point without expressing sexist sentiments. You didn't.
 
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David desJardins
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phosrik wrote:
So what would you prefer if you were in the Navy? An a-hole captain that was going to give you the best chance at survival or a nice and polite captain that had no idea what he was doing. If you employ a one strike rule against all captains, I guarantee the later is what you will get and many will die because of some bonehead decision that the nice guy made.


I don't think there's any negative correlation between treating people with respect, and competence to command a ship. The choice is between people who have both attributes, and people who only have one attribute. The leaders of the Navy, including his commanding officer, agree.

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But I also saw many, many officers coming to his support as well and not a single person coming forward to claim offence.


Well, of course not. If you were the fag on the ship, would you come forward to claim offense when most of your crewmates revel in denigrating people like you? What kind of an experience do you think that would lead to for your next several months at sea with those crewmates?
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49xjohn wrote:
COMPNOR wrote:
49xjohn wrote:
COMPNOR wrote:
49xjohn wrote:
bjlillo wrote:
I think it's pretty difficult to murder children at their school unless we have the protection of the 2nd amendment.


Dude, that is so Right. I am going to get a dozen AR-15's tonight!


Idiot. You'll be overpaying out your ass for them.


Why is that? Tell me, COMPNOR.


Because the hysteria has driven up the price, that a Bushmaster or a Double Star or a Stag isn't worth the price you'll end up paying.

If you were smart, you would have bought them months ago, so that you could turn around and make a profit on some unsuspecting tool who wouldn't know an AR from a CZ.


You could not pay me to own such a device. What is the specific purpose of owning, or wanting to own, this kind of weapon? That is what I would like to know, and that is what none of you sick motherfuckers will ever tell anyone. Why is that?


Well, seeing as you are so interested in having an honest discussion on the subject....
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David desJardins
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Euroncrowseye wrote:
On the subject of shooting, I wonder if men might show greater variance in ability? The mean ability is the same across genders but more men seem turn up at the top and bottom of distributions- there are a few distributions (IQ, sometimes maths, income amongst younger people) where this has been seen to happen. To horribly simplify Simon Baron-Cohen, the male mind is supposed to be a few steps down the autistic spectrum to start with, which might help explain it a little I suppose.

Not a great deal to take offense at there and lots of potential for derailing.


I find it offensive and stupid. The fact you see nothing to take offense at, is really the point.

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If you had genuinely taken issue with part of it, you would have quoted and responded.


Wrong.

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Oh, and I've just noticed your improving society point. The role of the military is not to make you feel good at your next fundraising soiree.


Improving society isn't about feeling good either. Literally nothing to do with that.
 
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David desJardins
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Euroncrowseye wrote:
For you to claim that your way is superior and in no way reflects personal feeling is laughable.


I didn't claim that. You sure spend a lot of time arguing with stuff I didn't say.
 
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David desJardins
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I've got an informed opinion about what's good or bad for society. I might be right or I might be wrong, no one can claim to be infallible. But my opinions have nothing to do with what makes me "feel good". Many of my opinions in fact aren't what would make me feel good. But they are what I believe to be true.
 
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Euroncrowseye wrote:


There is no universal preference for society. What makes you feel good about the society you live in is the only consideration you have here.

The fact that people in these forums all fall into different sides of arguments when discussing how to improve society shows that there is no one universal way, whether it be the end result or the means. For you to claim that your way is superior and in no way reflects personal feeling is laughable.


well you konw, lots of people have beliefs about improving thigs that are intensely harmful. An opinion being *held* doesn't give it validity.

 
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David desJardins
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Euroncrowseye wrote:
What I'm saying is that your views are not universally shared, and should a large enough proportion disagree with the idea that the military should be 100% representative of income, ethnicity, physical ability etc then there may be something wrong with that view.


Your discovery is that I'm not infallible, and I could be wrong?

You are just now figuring this out??
 
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DaviddesJ wrote:
phosrik wrote:

But I also saw many, many officers coming to his support as well and not a single person coming forward to claim offence.


Well, of course not. If you were the fag on the ship, would you come forward to claim offense when most of your crewmates revel in denigrating people like you? What kind of an experience do you think that would lead to for your next several months at sea with those crewmates?


We are talking about the Navy here right?
 
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David desJardins
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phosrik wrote:
We are talking about the Navy here right?


I wouldn't generalize about "the Navy" in general. How service members act and respond will be strongly affected by their leadership. I was only talking about the circumstances on this particular ship, where many of the crew enjoyed entertainment that included degrading and insulting others. It doesn't necessarily follow that they would have acted and felt the same way if they weren't being encouraged in that by their leadership. In fact, the argument for better conduct by leadership is precisely that leadership matters.
 
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Rich S
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DaviddesJ wrote:
phosrik wrote:
We are talking about the Navy here right?


I wouldn't generalize about "the Navy" in general. How service members act and respond will be strongly affected by their leadership. I was only talking about the circumstances on this particular ship, where many of the crew enjoyed entertainment that included degrading and insulting others. It doesn't necessarily follow that they would have acted and felt the same way if they weren't being encouraged in that by their leadership. In fact, the argument for better conduct by leadership is precisely that leadership matters.


That was a joke. Should have added appropriate emoticon. Guess I'm getting crickets on that one. blush
 
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William Boykin
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No one is saying that there should be a lowering of standards. And there are very reasonable concerns about sexually harrassment and rape that need to be addressed. All of the armed forces have a problem with rape and harrassment as it is right now- integrating the various combat branches is actually a step in the right direction because it forces the need to deal with this problem institutionally front and center.

But the real reason that its necessary to integrate along gender lines is that right now, women aren't getting promoted because in order to get the bump up to senior rank, you need to have served in a combat MOS. Don't get your ticket punched, you don't move up the ladder. This means that a lot of very qualified and bright women, who are needed in the Armed Services, aren't ever going to make it past Captain or Major.

Personally, I think that its growing increasingly clear that there is a problem with our senior officer corps in general anyway- too much ticket punching, too much rotation of division/brigade commanders, not enough cross studying at Ivy League or other schools in fields of study other than Military Science, and a political elite in the White House which forces out plain speaking "TruthSayers" like Marine Gen. Mattis (CENTCOM) and rather encouraging a culture of just 'go along with the flow' and outlasting the civilian leadership.

Bringing women into the combat arms is a good first step in transitioning our Armed Forces into the 21st Century, but is not an end goal in and of itself. There is much to yet to do.

Darilian
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Engineering.
 
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William Boykin
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Euroncrowseye wrote:
Darilian wrote:
not enough cross studying at Ivy League or other schools in fields of study other than Military Science


What would you have them study?

Anything, really.
International studies, economics, engineering, pure physics, history, psychology, anthropology-

What matters is that they're encouraged to cross train, and be true inter-disciplinal synthesists. The nature of war is that one can NEVER know what piece of information could be useful, and encouraging officers to be broad generalists across several fields of study outside of the narrow confines of the military art makes them better, and more thoughtful, thinkers.

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Rich Shipley
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Darilian wrote:
Euroncrowseye wrote:
Darilian wrote:
not enough cross studying at Ivy League or other schools in fields of study other than Military Science


What would you have them study?

Anything, really.
International studies, economics, engineering, pure physics, history, psychology, anthropology-


They have these majors and classes at the military academies. Are you talking about post-graduate studies?
 
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I heard on the radio that women serving in combat roles are still 20% safer than if they were dating Chris Brown.
 
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William Boykin
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rshipley wrote:
Darilian wrote:
Euroncrowseye wrote:
Darilian wrote:
not enough cross studying at Ivy League or other schools in fields of study other than Military Science


What would you have them study?

Anything, really.
International studies, economics, engineering, pure physics, history, psychology, anthropology-


They have these majors and classes at the military academies. Are you talking about post-graduate studies?


Yes-
MA's, and for the higher levels of command, PhD's.

Darilian
 
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William Boykin
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Euroncrowseye wrote:
Darilian wrote:
rshipley wrote:
Darilian wrote:
Euroncrowseye wrote:
Darilian wrote:
not enough cross studying at Ivy League or other schools in fields of study other than Military Science


What would you have them study?

Anything, really.
International studies, economics, engineering, pure physics, history, psychology, anthropology-


They have these majors and classes at the military academies. Are you talking about post-graduate studies?


Yes-
MA's, and for the higher levels of command, PhD's.

Darilian


I would rather they had experience of combat.

Their primary job is warfare, not esoteric discussion. That's what they should be good at, and I suspect the scope for cross pollination giving rise to new ideas is pretty low. Game theory, psychology and the like which offer 'low hanging fruit' would be studied by those whose job it is to study such. The average officer doesn't need to have a PhD. Neither do the generals: they have staff to provide knowledge in those areas.


Then the conduct of the Iraq War from 2003-2006 should have been just peachy for you, because that war was fought by men without a broader understanding of how insurgencies arise and operate, and who felt- from the basis of their combat experience in Gulf War I, Panama, and Bosnia, that all they needed was to destroy the warmaking infrastructure of the Iraqis and everything would be just fine later on.

That failure of vision nearly led the US into another abyss akin to Vietnam.

In the Classical Age, Persian nobility were felt that all they needed to know was how to ride a horse, shoot a bow and tell the truth.

Alexander, son of Phillip of Macedon, on the other hand, was taught by Aristotle, one of the finest minds of Greece, about natural philosophy, geography, history, politics and ethics.

Darilian
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Euroncrowseye wrote:
jmilum wrote:
Engineering.


I don't know how it's done in America, but in the UK people who join the army as engineers are taught as part of their training.


I've met Signals officers rather than Engineers. And they had degrees - at least some had masters - done at some point in their training. Cranfield University is particularly favoured for appropriate postgraduate studies I believe.

Being sponsored by the military through university used to be quite common too. No idea now.

Edit: Looking for something broader, I found the following. REME is the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers, i.e. the British Army's Engineers

Quote:
As the only all-professional engineering Corps in the Army, all REME Officers must hold either an engineering or other relevant technical or numerate degree such as mathematics, physics or IT, through which there is a clearly defined route to achieving Chartered Engineer status.


Since that was about REME, I'm going to throw in an almost completely irrelevant anecdote. So sue me. My late father did National Service (conscription) in the 1950s. If going to university you could do your National Service before or after your degree. By father chose the after option (probably I suspect at least in part hoping it would have gone away in three years). But it hadn't. They put him in the REME (his degree was in Physics with Mathematics - first class honours). And with a degree they put him in the potential officers group. After a while (never known exactly how long) the army and my father came to the mutual agreement that he wasn't a potential officer. So he stayed a private for two years. Though with some additional pay for being s specialist (he mended radios I believe). And I once heard him say he also added a bit playing three card brag (and all the time I knew him he never gambled - so maybe that wasn't gambling either).


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Darilian wrote:
rshipley wrote:
Darilian wrote:
Euroncrowseye wrote:
Darilian wrote:
not enough cross studying at Ivy League or other schools in fields of study other than Military Science


What would you have them study?

Anything, really.
International studies, economics, engineering, pure physics, history, psychology, anthropology-


They have these majors and classes at the military academies. Are you talking about post-graduate studies?


Yes-
MA's, and for the higher levels of command, PhD's.


I can possibly see an advantage to having some people with advanced degrees in the higher ranks (and many have them), but requiring it might be over-emphasizing education over performance.
 
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rshipley wrote:
Darilian wrote:
rshipley wrote:
Darilian wrote:
Euroncrowseye wrote:
Darilian wrote:
not enough cross studying at Ivy League or other schools in fields of study other than Military Science


What would you have them study?

Anything, really.
International studies, economics, engineering, pure physics, history, psychology, anthropology-


They have these majors and classes at the military academies. Are you talking about post-graduate studies?


Yes-
MA's, and for the higher levels of command, PhD's.


I can possibly see an advantage to having some people with advanced degrees in the higher ranks (and many have them), but requiring it might be over-emphasizing education over performance.


Performance improves with better cross education. No one really disputes this.

The problem is that getting one's degree at a good university gets in the way of ticket punching- the system of taking certain assignments as they come up, and if you don't get your ticket punched, your career is screwed. If one were to forgo a staff assignment overseas in order to finish ones dissertation, for instance, you could do it- but your career is over. Doesn't matter how good you are, you're screwed.

The real problem is ticket punching. If there was some sanity whereby promotions weren't tied to this narrow conception of cross training within the services- Ranger School, then Drop School, then a staff command, then a Battalion command, etc etc- and more of a peer review system of looking at the officer in question, a lot of these issues would sort themselves out. Officers would have the ability to plan for bettering themselves educationally. The Armed Services would be better able to keep officers who might be aces at a particular job description (but suck at other things) in the service, rather than have them get rotated out of the job they're good at into one they suck at.

Darilian

 
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Rich Shipley
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Darilian wrote:
rshipley wrote:
I can possibly see an advantage to having some people with advanced degrees in the higher ranks (and many have them), but requiring it might be over-emphasizing education over performance.


Performance improves with better cross education. No one really disputes this.


That's a pretty general statement. Knowing more is helpful, but formal education doen't have a monopoly on that. Degrees can just be ticket punching of a different sort.

I'd agree that the military doesn't do things that always seem to make sense, but I don't see advanced education as a magic bullet here.
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Darilian wrote:
Then the conduct of the Iraq War from 2003-2006 should have been just peachy for you, because that war was fought by men without a broader understanding of how insurgencies arise and operate, and who felt- from the basis of their combat experience in Gulf War I, Panama, and Bosnia, that all they needed was to destroy the warmaking infrastructure of the Iraqis and everything would be just fine later on.


In my understanding of Iraq, the initial strategy came top down from the civilian leadership. They went through generals until they got the ones that would go along. The revised strategy came up through the officer ranks in the field.
 
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William Boykin
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rshipley wrote:
Darilian wrote:
Then the conduct of the Iraq War from 2003-2006 should have been just peachy for you, because that war was fought by men without a broader understanding of how insurgencies arise and operate, and who felt- from the basis of their combat experience in Gulf War I, Panama, and Bosnia, that all they needed was to destroy the warmaking infrastructure of the Iraqis and everything would be just fine later on.


In my understanding of Iraq, the initial strategy came top down from the civilian leadership. They went through generals until they got the ones that would go along. The revised strategy came up through the officer ranks in the field.


I'm not talking strategy- which was the purview of Rumsfeld and Gen. Franks- but tactics. Examples include having artillery units fire off 155mm shells in counterbattery against incoming mortars, without considering for the fact that the mortar teams were intermingled with civilians and were able to redeploy very quickly after firing off one or two rounds. Sure, C-B fire might 'get' one or two of those teams, but at the cost of extensive civilian property damage and sometimes even civilian collateral damage- and with that, increased support for the nascent insurgency.

Given the orders from above, it was 'correct'. But it sure as hell wasn't appropriate to the realities on the ground.

Some officers and commanders were able to figure this out, early. Others, not so much.

However, as I said above, the real problem is ticket punching. Additional cross education is just one added BONUS of reforming the current system. Officers currently get extensive monetary funding to go off and further their education- what they lack is an incentive or support from the military establishment to really push hard.

Darilian
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Rich Shipley
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Darilian wrote:
However, as I said above, the real problem is ticket punching. Additional cross education is just one added BONUS of reforming the current system. Officers currently get extensive monetary funding to go off and further their education- what they lack is an incentive or support from the military establishment to really push hard.


I did a quick scan through recent 4-star generals and see that just about all of them have a civilian masters degree that looks like it was gained during their service. I didn't see any that had a PhD.
 
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