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Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear! (second edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Mines against transported units rss

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Thierry Mattray
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How does work mines attacks against transported units ?

Are both units (transporting and transported) entering a mined hex attacked ? And with no vehicle bonus protection for the transported unit ?
 
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Christopher Dodge
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tontione wrote:
How does work mines attacks against transported units ?

Are both units (transporting and transported) entering a mined hex attacked ? And with no vehicle bonus protection for the transported unit ?


17.1 Firing at Transported Units
Incoming fire is resolved simultaneously against a vehicle and the
flank DRs of any transported units. Attacks are rolled individually for
each unit. Both the vehicle and the transported unit receive the hex’s
terrain modifier. If a transporting vehicle is destroyed, any surviving
unit is placed on the map facing the same way the vehicle was facing
when destroyed. Transported units do not receive extra damage if the
vehicle is destroyed.

A mine is an attack so it should follow 17.1, which says that the attack is resolved simultaneously against both the vehicle and the transported unit.

As for the second part of your question, I have always interpreted the DV value a vehicle provides as being different from a terrain or fortification modifier. So even if the vehicle is destroyed, the transported unit still receives any DV modifier that the vehicle provides when the transported unit determines its DV. Someone else speak up if I am wrong on this point.
 
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Steve Pultorak
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18.5 Land Mines
Mines may be placed on any hex, openly or hidden,
as specified by a firefight. If a hidden mine is moved
onto, a mine counter is placed in the hex. Mines
attack enemy or friendly units immediately after the
units move into a mined hex or take any action other
than firing, rallying, or spotting for OBA. Units moving
out of a mine hex are not affected by the mines. If a
new unit moves into a mined hex with an existing unit in it, only the
new unit is affected by the mine attack.
• Mines with a blue number explode against vehicles with blue or
green movement values.
• Mines with a red number explode against units with red
movement values.
• Mines with a black number explode against all units.
When a unit moves onto a mine and it explodes, the owner of the unit
rolls 2D6. On a die result equal to or greater than the number listed,
the unit is hit. On a die result 4 more than the number listed, the unit
is destroyed. A player may modify the die roll with CAPs.
Terrain and fortification DMs do not affect mine attacks.
Ex: A mine with a blue number would affect vehicles only. Foot
units are safe to move over them.
Land mines can be cleared by artillery/mortar fire or fire from foot
units that succeed with a CC attack against its red 15DR (which is
printed on the bottom right corner of the counter) plus any applicable
terrain DMs.
Land mines affect all sides, both friendly and enemy, the same.
 
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Christopher Dodge
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I was basing my response off of the AotB 2nd Edition rules, which I guess also answers the question as it says that the attack number is black and explodes against all fot and vehicle units.

18.3.3 Land Mines may be placed on any hex,
openly or hidden, as specified by the firefight. If a unit
moves onto a hidden mine, a mine counter is placed
in that hex. Mines attack enemy or friendly units
immediately after the units move into a mined hex or
take any action other than firing, rallying, or spotting
for artillery. Units moving out of a mine hex are not
affected by the mines. If a new unit moves into a mined hex with an
existing unit in it, only the new unit is affected by the mine attack.
- Mines included with this game have a black attack number, thus
explode against all foot and vehicle units.
When an enemy unit moves onto a mine, the mine owner rolls 2D6,
which may be modified with CAPs. On a 2D6 result equal to or
greater than eight, the unit is hit.
Terrain and fortification DMs do not affect mine attacks.
 
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Thierry Mattray
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My question was for the 2nd edition rules.

I agree with you Christopher that both units are attacked, even if its not explicite.
For me the key sentence is : " Mines attack enemy or friendly units
immediately after the units move into a mined hex ". Both are moving, both are attacked.

But there is no information about protection modifier from the vehicle ...
It's not a "terrain or fortification modifier" i think !?
But does it apply ?
it seems not : " the mine owner rolls 2D6,
which may be modified with CAPs. On a 2D6 result equal to or
greater than eight, the unit is hit."
The only possible modifier seems to be CAP...
 
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Keegan Fink
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Place the actions in a thematic context. Under the normal rules, transported units escape to safety when the vehicle they occupy is destroyed. Generally speaking, most attacks levied against a vehicle will come either from another armored unit, or a heavily armed infantry unit (artillery and planes being the exception). Although the severity of attacks may differ, factors like angle of deflection, armor placement, and unit strength are all contributing factors which might explain how the transported crew members survive when the vehicle is destroyed.

Compare that to the damage inflicted by a mine. For the sake of weight, nearly all vehicles tend to apply outer armor to the front/sides (and possibly upper areas) of their frame. A well laid mine, designed for vehicles (as opposed to the anti-personnel variety) can be catastrophic given the relatively poor underbody armor.

In a sense, COH already does a pretty good job of regulating the volatility of mines by differentiating between vehicle and anti-personnel varieties (each color value correlating to a specific unit type). The mine damage checks already allows a fair amount of flexibility for vehicles and crew to escape danger. If the check is successful, a high powered shape charge ripping through the comparatively weak under-chassis of a vehicle is bound to inflict concentrated damage on the units inside.

Now imagine if the same vehicle took a deflected tank round which disables the wheels, tracks, or engine/fuel/transmission assembly. While all of the above would prove fatal for the vehicle, it's not guaranteed that the units inside (or riding on top of) that vehicle would be automatically KIA.

A mine to the underbelly however could definitely eliminate both the vehicle and it's occupants efficiently, provided the circumstances are right (hence the damage roll). It doesn't seem unreasonable for the damage to affect both the vehicle AND the transported units.

Take what I said with a grain of salt, as I'm just spit-balling ideas to see what sticks.
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Jesse LeBreton
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Right Keegan, most rule interpretations can be satisfied if you just think about it and then make a call that makes sense to you and your opponent. However, COH does an excellent job of minimizing that need for you. Nearly a 100% of all possible scenarios within this system have logical answers already. With a little logic yourself you can referee the tiny percent that remains if you don't think it's clearly answered in the rules.
 
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Heiko Möller
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That would mean that a transported foot unit could be completely wiped out, while the truck transporting them could roll through unharmed..?

I think i will house-rule this to, transported foot units can only be hit if their transporting vehicle is hit.

 
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Raph Moimoi
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So what's the official answer ?
 
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Lewis Karl
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I don't know of an "official" answer. I assume you searched the forum. The standard, based on existing rules for shots, is to roll separately for each unit, the vehicle and the transported unit. That's how I play.
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Raph Moimoi
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pisqueeter wrote:
I don't know of an "official" answer. I assume you searched the forum. The standard, based on existing rules for shots, is to roll separately for each unit, the vehicle and the transported unit. That's how I play.


I searched and I saw no Felkor or Uwe answer... I'm finishing reading the whole forum and I'll write to them.
 
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James Palmer
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Both the transported and transporting unit are attacked by the mine.

I think the rules are reasonably clear, although I can understand someone thinking that it could be unrealistic.

One of the things to remember in Conflict of Heroes, though, is that getting "hit" is often more about morale than being physically damaged. It could make sense that a bunch of mines going off could lower the morale of the transported troops while not physically slowing down the vehicle.
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Raph Moimoi
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Felkor wrote:
Both the transported and transporting unit are attacked by the mine.

I think the rules are reasonably clear, although I can understand someone thinking that it could be unrealistic.

One of the things to remember in Conflict of Heroes, though, is that getting "hit" is often more about morale than being physically damaged. It could make sense that a bunch of mines going off could lower the morale of the transported troops while not physically slowing down the vehicle.


Thanks ! The game is really great and I totally understand the way the rulings are done.
 
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