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Clash of Cultures» Forums » Rules

Subject: Two action cards that cancel each other rss

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Bernardo Tonasse
Czech Republic
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In my last game, my friend attacked one of my armies (ok, he's then technically not my friend then). When asked if he would be using an Action card, he said yes. Then I said I would too. We both choose the card and then we reveal them at the same time (I hope this is the correct procedure, by the way). It turns out that both cards have a "cancel the enemy's Action card" effect. They're not exactly the same card (mine was Martyr, and I don't remember his anymore). What happens here? Since he's the attacker, his Action card plays out first? Or is it the other way around? In the end, we went for the diplomatic route and choose to cancel both cards' effects.
 
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Bruno Freitas
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Just looked at the rules, but could find the information you asked.

It seems to me that both cards are canceled, as I assume they are played at the same time (rules inference).

Eu fiz um resumo das regras. Se quiser, mande um email para mim, que te envio.

Bruno
 
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Bernardo Tonasse
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Olá, Bruno. Obrigado, mas não precisa. Legal da sua parte ter traduzido as regras ao português.

I'm really enjoying this game so far, and my biggest gripe with it would be the rulebook. I appreciate the effort of making it very visual and well organized (very good idea to put the index on the cover), but I think it's poorly written (many sentences which are ambiguous and not covering special situations like this one more clearly).

I bought the game here in France and, at least in French, this is a real issue. Last year I bought Agricola, which is more complex than this one, and I think I had to go back to consult with the rulebook just once or twice during all this time. It covers everything in detail and every special situation that can arise. The text on the cards and on the board is also clearer. I have also many other games, and never I had to consult with the rulebook or a forum so many times. Either the information is not in the rulebook, or it is ambiguous, or it is I who have missed it, in which case it is my fault, but not only, since many people keep asking questions because they failed to spot something on the manual. Either way, there'd be work to be done by Z-Man.

And since the critics door is open, I'm also disappointed by the quality of the pieces. The boats barely stand because they were poorly cut, the sails don't fit very well, and the paper used to make the cards are less than average quality. The inside of the box could also be better, to help arranging the pieces inside after unpacking.

I hope Z-Man will take this into consideration for its next releases. Otherwise, it is a great game. It is fun, demands deep strategical thinkinh, the rules are neat and balanced, the modular board is very well designed, the visual representation of city growth is very creative and effective etc etc etc. It's good to see a "heir" to the great Advanced Civilization working so well.
 
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Darrell Hanning
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It's been a couple of weeks since I played, but I thought the attacker picked a card (face-down), then the defender picked a card, and both are revealed.

But if both cards only server to cancel the other's card, what difference does order make, anyway?
 
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Christian Marcussen
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Quote:
I'm really enjoying this game so far, and my biggest gripe with it would be the rulebook. I appreciate the effort of making it very visual and well organized (very good idea to put the index on the cover), but I think it's poorly written (many sentences which are ambiguous and not covering special situations like this one more clearly).


There is no special situation, nor is the card ambiguous. It even specifically adresses the situation above on the card.

Here is what "Martyr" says:

"Before any rolls of any kind,
sacrifice one Army/Ship unit to
eliminate one Army/Ship
unit and cancel his Combat card
(except the "Scouts" Combat card
which trumps this card")


And the "Scouts" card is exactly the card that your opponent played.

I don't know - maybe the French version is different (if so sorry!)? Anyway, I'm sorry you find the rules poorly written and ambiguous. I will fully admit that no rule book is perfect, including this one, but generally this rulebook has gotten quite a lot of apraise, and some questions that are asked here are not entirely due to poor rule writing.

All the best. Have fun
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Bernardo Tonasse
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Yes, I acknowledged many of my questions are covered in something I missed in the manual. But, in this case, I have the Martyr card here with me and it doesn't mention any of this. And yes, Éclaireurs (Scouts) was the card he used against me. Maybe a problem with the French version.

Thanks again for taking your time to answer. If only we could speak directly to the designer of any product we use! "Hey, Bill. I'm not happy about this new Windows feature here..."
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Christian Marcussen
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btonasse wrote:
Yes, I acknowledged many of my questions are covered in something I missed in the manual. But, in this case, I have the Martyr card here with me and it doesn't mention any of this. And yes, Éclaireurs (Scouts) was the card he used against me. Maybe a problem with the French version.

Thanks again for taking your time to answer. If only we could speak directly to the designer of any product we use! "Hey, Bill. I'm not happy about this new Windows feature here..."


Thanks. Ok, that is indeed unfortunate with the French version. I'll try make sure it goes into the French FAQ.

Cheers
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Loren Cadelinia
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btonasse wrote:
... I'm also disappointed by the quality of the pieces. The boats barely stand because they were poorly cut...


I took an exacto blade and trimmed off the extra plastic at the bottom of the boats. They stand perfectly now.
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Christian
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marqzen wrote:
btonasse wrote:
Yes, I acknowledged many of my questions are covered in something I missed in the manual. But, in this case, I have the Martyr card here with me and it doesn't mention any of this. And yes, Éclaireurs (Scouts) was the card he used against me. Maybe a problem with the French version.

Thanks again for taking your time to answer. If only we could speak directly to the designer of any product we use! "Hey, Bill. I'm not happy about this new Windows feature here..."


Thanks. Ok, that is indeed unfortunate with the French version. I'll try make sure it goes into the French FAQ.

Cheers

Strange, my french Martyrs card (Iello edition) explicitely says that Scouts trumps it...
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Christian Marcussen
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Kris wrote:
marqzen wrote:
btonasse wrote:
Yes, I acknowledged many of my questions are covered in something I missed in the manual. But, in this case, I have the Martyr card here with me and it doesn't mention any of this. And yes, Éclaireurs (Scouts) was the card he used against me. Maybe a problem with the French version.

Thanks again for taking your time to answer. If only we could speak directly to the designer of any product we use! "Hey, Bill. I'm not happy about this new Windows feature here..."


Thanks. Ok, that is indeed unfortunate with the French version. I'll try make sure it goes into the French FAQ.

Cheers

Strange, my french Martyrs card (Iello edition) explicitely says that Scouts trumps it...


Very, very odd. Never heard of two different French prints.
 
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Adam Riley
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So we had this situation last night. I attacked and played Martyr and the defender played the card which let's you retreat back towards one of your cities (I can't remember the name of that one, but it wasn't scouts). We couldn't decide whether both units died (which was my preference) or if the defender could retreat his unit to his city (which I was going to attack with my second move).

Did we miss a rule?
 
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George
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Quote:
Tactical Retreat (Army):
[Not playable if defending a city]
Combat ends before any rolls, and any enemy Combat card is discarded. Move your Army one space towards one of your cities (your opponent wins the battle).

Martyr (Army/Ship):
Before any rolls of any kind, sacrifice one Army/Ship unit to eliminate one enemy Army/Ship unit and cancel his Combat card (except the “Scouts” Combat card which trumps this card).

Scouts
(Army/Fortress/Ship):
The effect of your opponent’s Combat card is cancelled and you take the card into your hand.


That is tricky, but I believe Martyr takes precedence. Only Scouts and Martyr actually cancel opponent cards. Tactical Retreat just specifies you discard the enemy card (which if not Martyr/Scouts is useless) so you know the opponent doesn't take it back into their hand, arguing that combat ended before it got played.
 
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Igor Treskunov
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I've read this thread but still see no answer about the situation
Tactical retreat VS Scouts.
What happens then?
 
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Carsten Jorgensen
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JET_PILOT wrote:
I've read this thread but still see no answer about the situation
Tactical retreat VS Scouts.
What happens then?


My solution is to go over Martyr. Since Scouts is the only card that trumps Martyr (it says so on the card), Martyr must trump all other card. Which should mean that Scouts trump all cards (probably why there is only one Scouts and one Martyr in the game).

So with Scouts vs. Tactical Retreat, the owner of Scouts takes the Tactical Retreat card into his hand and combat is fought as normal.
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Ryan Wolfe
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We hit this situation too, so an official word would be nice.

Since Martyr wasn't involved, we didn't have any extra info about trumping to factor into our decision (we ended up flipping a coin).

If Scouts does indeed trump every other card, wouldn't it be better to put that information on the Scouts card instead of on Martyr?
 
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George
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0 hr wrote:
...If Scouts does indeed trump every other card, wouldn't it be better to put that information on the Scouts card instead of on Martyr?

That would be better, but it does in its way because it's the only one that says it cancels the other card. (Ok, Martyr does too but that is handled by the card text.) Maybe not as explicit as we would like, but "cancel" effects generally trump anything else in games.

Tactical Retreat tries to end combat (rendering the other card useless and discarded) but if it's canceled then it has no effect and the attempt fails.

I agree the wording of Tactical Retreat causes confusion, but 99.9% sure that Scouts beats Tactical Retreat.
 
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