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Subject: So what makes this a $80-$90 game? rss

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Ty Snouffer
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I love Market Garden games and have had my eyes on INS for awhile. Got it the other day via MMP's pre-order. So it has been months since I actually made the buying decision.

Now that I have it I am pleased but, as I was going through components and then saw the receipt in the shipping box I was reminded I paid $78 for it (shipped). Then I saw it retails for $90. Sure, BGGers won't pay that but many others will.

So what makes this a $80-90 game? Simply the five maps? The counters are fine but nothing spectacular. The rulebooks are B&W paper, no examples of play, no historical information. There are a few play aids but not any for the CRT or terrain, or basics SCS tables. No component chrome.

I suspect this is the way it is with MMP and SCS but that is only from comments of others not my own experience. The only MMP other game I have in my collection is Where Eagles Dare.

Are MMP games generally more expensive? I don't pretend to know anything about game production or costs. This just doesn't feel/strike me me as a $80-$90 game.

I'm sure it plays fine, but at that price I was kinda hoping for something special. I guess that will have to come out in the gameplay.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I laughed when I saw the tiny included dice. C'mon.
 
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Paul DeStefano
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Sometimes the price of a game is driven by a small print run, not the components.
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    I suspect they're pricing based on a smaller, more price resilient customer base for this title. I'd wager the median age for this one is significantly higher than the top ten on BGG.

             S.

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Kev.
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Sagrilarus wrote:

    I suspect they're pricing based on a smaller, more price resilient customer base for this title. I'd wager the median age for this one is significantly higher than the top ten on BGG.

             S.


That is a big assumption....
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Jeff Thompson
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Historical Research?

Wargames come with a lot of details that other games (ahem, Euros) do not. Wargames need BOTH playable mechanics AND historical detail to be a wargame (yeah, there, I defined it fer ya), otherwise they are just "a game".

So, why wouldn't you want to spend a little more, give the deesigner (haha, like that happens) a little extra dough for the hundreds of hours MORE he spent designing this game than let's say any other Euro-ish designer spends designing his games.

Of course all this is IMHO because I wrote it.
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hipshot wrote:
Sagrilarus wrote:

    I suspect they're pricing based on a smaller, more price resilient customer base for this title. I'd wager the median age for this one is significantly higher than the top ten on BGG.

             S.


That is a big assumption....


    Yes it is. I have no inside information to back it up whatsoever.

             S.


 
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Ty Snouffer
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Thanks for the reply guys. For the record, I don't know that I initially wrote anything that would have made this a wargames vs. Euros discussion.

I have a couple of shelves of wargames largely from GMT so that is my frame of reference when I make the comparison. Ardennes '44, Red Winter, Bloody April . . . those come to mind.

My other general frame of reference is Conflict of Heroes. Stunning, over the top components, but still less $$ than INS.

If the general answer is "MMP has smaller print runs especially on a niche operation like Marget Garden. That leads to higher costs." I think I can live with that.

If it is more along the lines of "They worked really, really hard on it so you should paid them more." Well . . .

Thanks, I'm excited to play INS and my first SCS game.
 
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Joe Thompson
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78USD! Games are so cheap in the US. Try living in the UK.
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Ty Snouffer
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ShallowThought wrote:
78USD! Games are so cheap in the US. Try living in the UK.


I shudder to think!
 
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Carl Fung
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Tompy wrote:
Historical Research?

Wargames come with a lot of details that other games (ahem, Euros) do not. Wargames need BOTH playable mechanics AND historical detail to be a wargame (yeah, there, I defined it fer ya), otherwise they are just "a game".

So, why wouldn't you want to spend a little more, give the deesigner (haha, like that happens) a little extra dough for the hundreds of hours MORE he spent designing this game than let's say any other Euro-ish designer spends designing his games.

Of course all this is IMHO because I wrote it.



Hahahaha... hardly because of historical research. That comes from the love of the subject matter and the want to support a good product.

I'm no expert in this matter but I can imagine print costs for a "small" production run is a lot more per game than something that can be mass produced. This isn't they heyday of 100,000+ SPI production runs in the 1980's. These runs support a smaller base and each surviving board wargamer supports that cost. GMT games and other like companies have similar pricing. These board wargame companies don't churn up a lot of profit and paper print, die-cutting companies need to stay in business as well.
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Jeff Thompson
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calvinboy24 wrote:
Tompy wrote:
Historical Research?

Wargames come with a lot of details that other games (ahem, Euros) do not. Wargames need BOTH playable mechanics AND historical detail to be a wargame (yeah, there, I defined it fer ya), otherwise they are just "a game".

So, why wouldn't you want to spend a little more, give the deesigner (haha, like that happens) a little extra dough for the hundreds of hours MORE he spent designing this game than let's say any other Euro-ish designer spends designing his games.

Of course all this is IMHO because I wrote it.



Hahahaha... hardly because of historical research. That comes from the love of the subject matter and the want to support a good product.

I'm no expert in this matter but I can imagine print costs for a "small" production run is a lot more per game than something that can be mass produced. This isn't they heyday of 100,000+ SPI production runs in the 1980's. These runs support a smaller base and each surviving board wargamer supports that cost. GMT games and other like companies have similar pricing. These board wargame companies don't churn up a lot of profit and paper print, die-cutting companies need to stay in business as well.


Thank you for laughing at my opinion.yuk

(No really, I understand that wargame designers do this for the love of the history. I'm just sayin, sheesh, show a little love people.)

Let me say one last thing. It's a matter of perspective. I could be looking at 2 different wargames. One has historical detail and a beautiful map for $100. The other is similar but uses generic units and map for $50. If I'm interested in the subject, I'll pay $100.

I'm just saying that the consumer may be willing to pay more, regardless of the actual, and perhaps completely unrelated, cause of the high price. And those that complain about the high price may just want the generic version as they don't see the added value of the details.

Anyway, back to the real, and ultimately exciting, world of game print run economics.
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Carl Fung
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Tompy wrote:

Thank you for laughing at my opinion.yuk

(No really, I understand that wargame designers do this for the love of the history. I'm just sayin, sheesh, show a little love people.)

Let me say one last thing. It's a matter of perspective. I could be looking at 2 different wargames. One has historical detail and a beautiful map for $100. The other is similar but uses generic units and map for $50. If I'm interested in the subject, I'll pay $100.

I'm just saying that the consumer may be willing to pay more, regardless of the actual, and perhaps completely unrelated, cause of the high price. And those that complain about the high price may just want the generic version as they don't see the added value of the details.

Anyway, back to the real, and ultimately exciting, world of game print run economics.


I'm laughing because I won't get a dime for the research I put into INS... check the rulebook for my name.

The costs are going up. There's a fine line that the companies that set the prices need to establish a break-even point for the components and size of the print run.
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The Gamers is a very specialized Niche - the designs of one Man with additional designs by a very few talented Essig fans.

This stuff is not for mass consumption - it is some serious stuff tested to an absurd level and loved by a few folks in a hobby with few people in it.

I know I am going to buy these things - so I save money up front by POing this stuff - and damn if I am not tempted to start doubling that - WW2/ACW Essig Titles usually hold their value or better - they go out of print and rarely come back.

Print Runs are low - MMP is not a powerhouse publisher - it could only get better - now this is radical - is if MMP somehow got obtained by GMT.

GTM knows how to publish a lot of stuff - that scale provides savings and continuity.

OCS/SCS does not get nearly enough coverage because of the rarity caused by "This is the best stuff! and its OOP!".

Afrika II - you would think they would print 2000 of those now....

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Wilhammer wrote:
The Gamers is a very specialized Niche - the designs of one Man with additional designs by a very few talented Essig fans.

This stuff is not for mass consumption - it is some serious stuff tested to an absurd level and loved by a few folks in a hobby with few people in it.

I know I am going to buy these things - so I save money up front by POing this stuff - and damn if I am not tempted to start doubling that - WW2/ACW Essig Titles usually hold their value or better - they go out of print and rarely come back.

Print Ones are low - MMP is not a powerhouse publisher - it could only get better - now this is radical - is if MMP somehow got obtained by GMT.

GTM knows how to publish a lot of stuff - that scale provides savings and continuity.

OCS/SCS does not get nearly enough coverage because of the rarity caused by "This is the best stuff! and its OOP!".

Afrika II - you would think they would print 2000 of those now....



Shhhhh. If every a-hole starts playing OCS, and all the goodies, then the esoteric Case Blue answer will be passe, prints runs will soar, quality will go down and the forum will be spammed with people askeing silier questions that I do!
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Isaac Citrom
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Seriously, I sometimes wonder if I'm the sole individual whose taken a basic economics course. In the first three minutes one is shown the demand vs. supply curve.

MMP, based on their experience, charges precisely the maximum price they think they can get away with that maximizes their profit.

In the case of INS, they pegged it about $70 for direct pre-orders. In the case of French cold cream, this is $300, and for an a drugmart cold cream with almost identical costs, this is $8.

Prices are not based on cost (directly); they are based on perceived value in the marketplace. That's why a bottle of sugar water (e.g. Coca-Cola) is sold for about the same price as a litre of gasoline that arrives via a $250 million refinery and a $2 billion dollar drilling platform.
.
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tsnouffer wrote:
ShallowThought wrote:
78USD! Games are so cheap in the US. Try living in the UK.


I shudder to think!


Convert the dollar price to pounds on a 1-1 basis and you're there.
 
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chris gammon
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Just last week while I was trolling for a table large enough for INS, an in-law asked "So how much was this game, $5?". (He's not from the US, and has no idea what wargaming is.) I said that there are so few wargamers that it costs more to make such a niche product.

But $5???
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isaacc wrote:

Seriously, I sometimes wonder if I'm the sole individual whose taken a basic economics course. In the first three minutes one is shown the demand vs. supply curve.

MMP, based on their experience, charges precisely the maximum price they think they can get away with that maximizes their profit.

In the case of INS, they pegged it about $70 for direct pre-orders. In the case of French cold cream, this is $300, and for an a drugmart cold cream with almost identical costs, this is $8.

Prices are not based on cost (directly); they are based on perceived value in the marketplace. That's why a bottle of sugar water (e.g. Coca-Cola) is sold for about the same price as a litre of gasoline that arrives via a $250 million refinery and a $2 billion dollar drilling platform.
.


Words of wisdom
Product is worth exactly as much as buyer is willing to pay for that product. I know that I am willing to pay 90 USD for INS.
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Joe Thompson
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Shauneroo wrote:
tsnouffer wrote:
ShallowThought wrote:
78USD! Games are so cheap in the US. Try living in the UK.


I shudder to think!


Convert the dollar price to pounds on a 1-1 basis and you're there.


y, Second Chance Games has a preorder price of 68GBP (save 4GBP, woot!). If this game is as good as I think it's going to be, then I have no problem with that price.
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Rui Serrabulho
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tsnouffer wrote:
ShallowThought wrote:
78USD! Games are so cheap in the US. Try living in the UK.


I shudder to think!


And you try to live in Portugal...
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psicoserra wrote:
tsnouffer wrote:
ShallowThought wrote:
78USD! Games are so cheap in the US. Try living in the UK.


I shudder to think!


And you try to live in Portugal...


y. Did you see the speech that Pedro Passos Coelho just made talking about the latest austerity measures? Apparently they're going to forbid anyone to buy a game if they haven't played the ones they've already got
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Ty Snouffer
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Igorekz wrote:
isaacc wrote:

Seriously, I sometimes wonder if I'm the sole individual whose taken a basic economics course. In the first three minutes one is shown the demand vs. supply curve.

MMP, based on their experience, charges precisely the maximum price they think they can get away with that maximizes their profit.

In the case of INS, they pegged it about $70 for direct pre-orders. In the case of French cold cream, this is $300, and for an a drugmart cold cream with almost identical costs, this is $8.

Prices are not based on cost (directly); they are based on perceived value in the marketplace. That's why a bottle of sugar water (e.g. Coca-Cola) is sold for about the same price as a litre of gasoline that arrives via a $250 million refinery and a $2 billion dollar drilling platform.
.


Words of wisdom
Product is worth exactly as much as buyer is willing to pay for that product. I know that I am willing to pay 90 USD for INS.


Nothing too radical there. I was willing to pay for INS sight unseen so it is hard for me to argue the economics from that POV. What sold me on it: 1) Market Garden 2) I didn't have a SCS game

I'm pretty sure though that in the future I would be less willing to pre-order a game (from MMP or anyone else) and/or buy another SCS game. Maybe I'm not the type of customer they are looking for. Or maybe I will play it, fall in love with it and recognize the value later.

Seems like most of the folks here are familiar with SCS and the history and expectations around the product. That wasn't me though.

I'll try to take the cost of the physical components out (happy Isaacc?) and simply say upon opening the box and inspecting its contents I was underwhelmed and wishing for more.

Cheers!
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ShallowThought wrote:
Shauneroo wrote:
tsnouffer wrote:
ShallowThought wrote:
78USD! Games are so cheap in the US. Try living in the UK.


I shudder to think!


Convert the dollar price to pounds on a 1-1 basis and you're there.


y, Second Chance Games has a preorder price of 68GBP (save 4GBP, woot!). If this game is as good as I think it's going to be, then I have no problem with that price.


Which you realize is $107 USD right? For $100 USD List price (actual purchased MUCH lower on Amazon) one could buy:

Runewars (first edition)
Tides of Iron
Eclipse when it was out of print and hard to find
Superdungeon Explore
Zombiecide

All of which comes with nice bits, miniatures, etc.

And the list goes on. I'm not comparing these items TO wargames in term of theme, I am comparing them purely on the basis of components, etc. and to show how skewed the price in the UK is compared to the prices you can get it for in the US. I sure as heck wouldn't want to pay UK prices as that is insane, especially for some small pieces of card board.

Or to put it even MORE in perspective, for what you are paying for that one wargame in GBP, I could take the same amount of GBP converted to USD, buy them in the US and get 2-3 high quality games (including this one) for the same price. Overseas pricing is nuts (thank you VAT).
 
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    The maps cover nine feet by five feet. That's a table for eight seats with map hanging over both sides.

    Eight scenarios.

             S.

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