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Subject: Turn Time Limit rss

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Mr. Burn
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I was wondering if some reinforces a time limit? Because sometime it can drag for long just for one tile!

On the Xbox, the default when you play live is 45 seconds, which is a good number in order to keep the game going at a normal pace.

What do you guys think?
 
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Andi Duncan
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We have a house rule of two minutes, which also includes reseating a tile if not already scored.
 
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Mr. Burn
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BigAndiD wrote:
We have a house rule of two minutes

Isn't this a bit long? Just for the original, that's 71 tiles x 2 minutes = a bit more than 2h30, the box shows 30-45 minutes for a game! I know not all turn takes that long, but it potentially can

And what do you mean by this:

BigAndiD wrote:
which also includes reseating a tile if not already scored.
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Andi Duncan
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1) That's just the maximum time we play at home, but a full game (so far) has not been longer than an hour

2) Some of the people I game with need to place the tile on the table first before deciding if that's the move they wish to make. So to allow them to do this we use the 2 minute time limit and providing they have not scored the tile (completing a road or city for example) then they can move it to another location if they like.

does that clear up the confusion?
 
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Mr. Burn
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BigAndiD wrote:
does that clear up the confusion?


It does, thanks!
 
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Nick Shaw
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Out of interest, what do you do if someone exceeds their time limit? Make them put their tile back? Disqualify them from the game?

What does the XBox version do after 45 seconds?...
 
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Jim McMahon
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I play the game to have fun. If a person would ever need to take a longer time to find their tile placement to have fun, so be it. *note* Needing to take a longer time to find their tile placement rarely ever happens.
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Mr. Burn
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njshaw2 wrote:
What does the XBox version do after 45 seconds?

It automatically lays the tile to where your selection was.

jimmcmahon wrote:
I play the game to have fun

I get that and I also play for fun, but when the same person always take 2-3 times longer than anyone else, I find it less fun and the games just takes that much longer to finish.
 
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L H
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You can draw your next tile as soon as you place one. This gives you time to think about where to place it while the other players are taking their turns. Our house rule is you can draw a tile as soon as the previous player has drawn one.
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Mr. Burn
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xldh wrote:
Our house rule is you can draw a tile as soon as the previous player has drawn one.

Same here, except when we play with the builder or with the bazaar, although not too many enjoy that last one. With the builder you simply need to see if the current player has a builder on the board and if he does, wait that he picks his second tile and then you can pick yours and start planning whilst he's playing
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Want fun?

Use a chess clock and play Blitz-Carc, 5 minutes a side.
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Andi Duncan
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njshaw2 wrote:
Out of interest, what do you do if someone exceeds their time limit? Make them put their tile back? Disqualify them from the game?

What does the XBox version do after 45 seconds?...


I find nagging and badgering to work best
 
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Mark Judd
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xldh wrote:
You can draw your next tile as soon as you place one. This gives you time to think about where to place it while the other players are taking their turns. Our house rule is you can draw a tile as soon as the previous player has drawn one.

But there are certain expansions where it makes a big difference whether you draw your next tile before the previous player(s) have completed their turn.

The biggest example I can think of is Traders and Builders. If one of the players adds on to a feature with Bob (the builder meeple), they can draw and play another tile. So there is a chance that they could have drawn the tile that you drew out of turn.

Also with the Princess and the Dragon if the dragon is required to move on another player's turn, knowledge of your next tile might influence where you want to move the dragon.
 
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Daniel Johns
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Beaveman wrote:

The biggest example I can think of is Traders and Builders. If one of the players adds on to a feature with Bob (the builder meeple), they can draw and play another tile. So there is a chance that they could have drawn the tile that you drew out of turn.


This seems a bit silly to me. Assuming the tiles are well shuffled, what does it matter if one player picks up a tile before another does so? (If the builders make it possibile that the game will end before you get another turn, that's another matter.)
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Mr. Burn
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OmegaDan wrote:
...what does it matter if one player picks up a tile before another does so?


It matters a lot! There could only be 1 specific tile left that both players are "fighting" for and if you pick before I do, then you have chance to picking up that tile when really I could of. Game changing difference!
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Julius Andrikonis
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carcassebs wrote:
OmegaDan wrote:
...what does it matter if one player picks up a tile before another does so?


It matters a lot! There could only be 1 specific tile left that both players are "fighting" for and if you pick before I do, then you have chance to picking up that tile when really I could of. Game changing difference!


Suppose, a two player game and that you need one specific tile. Suppose this is your opponent's turn and there are n tiles in the bag. If you do not allow your opponent to pick in advance, then you have a probability of 1/n to pick the tile you need. Otherwise, if he picks a tile for his next turn before you pick yours, then you probability of getting the needed tile can be calculated as follows: the probability, that your opponent doesn't pick the tile you need is (n-1)/n times the probability that if your opponent doesn't pick the tile and you do is 1/(n-1):

(n-1)/n * 1/(n-1)= 1/n. It is still the same probability.

I know this is a much simplified situation, but I believe similar calculations with analogous results can be done in every other case. The only case when it matters is if there is a possibility that someone might be able to pick several tiles in one turn (as with builder) and this might change when the game ends.
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Mr. Burn
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Juliusan wrote:
(n-1)/n * 1/(n-1)= 1/n. It is still the same probability.

Appreciate the Math, but I still don't accept the fact that the person may pick the tile that I could of picked and sometime that tile is what will win or lose the game, so it shouldn't be based on probability.
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Mark L
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carcassebs wrote:
Juliusan wrote:
(n-1)/n * 1/(n-1)= 1/n. It is still the same probability.

Appreciate the Math, but I still don't accept the fact that the person may pick the tile that I could of picked and sometime that tile is what will win or lose the game, so it shouldn't be based on probability.

I seem to remember this argument cropping up before...

Let me put it this way:

Let's say you're one of six people drawing straws. Each of you has the same chance (one in six) of drawing the short straw.

But if four people have already drawn their straws, then one of them may have already drawn the short straw! If so, you have no chance of drawing the short straw.

But it doesn't matter. Your overall chance of drawing the short straw is one in six. Which order you pick them makes no difference to that.

In the same way, in your example of two players "fighting" over a specific tile, the order they pick them out in makes no difference to their chances of getting that tile.
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Mr. Burn
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xipuloxx wrote:
But it doesn't matter. Your overall chance of drawing the short straw is one in six. Which order you pick them makes no difference to that.

Maybe it's because I'm rusty in that department, but shouldn't your chance of picking up the short straw decrease as the players before you chooses their straws and it's not the short one?

If two before me picks up two straws that aren't the shortest one (let's assume we can know), then shouldn't my chance of picking up the shortest one now be 1 in 4 and not 1 in 6?

I can see what this had some arguments before devil

(edited for typos)
 
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Mark L
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carcassebs wrote:
If two before me picks up two straws that aren't the shortest one (let's assume we can know), then shouldn't my chance of picking up the shortest one now be 1 in 4 and not 1 in 6?

Yes -- now. But it doesn't matter, because when you agree to draw straws, all six of you have the same chance to draw the short straw. The order you pick straws in doesn't make any difference to that.

I think you're confusing yourself by imagining a situation partway through and treating that as if it was the whole situation.


Let's take another more relevant example:

We're playing Carcassonne using Traders & Builders. You are just about to place a tile which will activate your builder, giving you an extra turn. There are 2 tiles left, A & B. Whichever of us draws A will gain enough points to win the game, and whichever draws B will lose.

Does it matter whether I draw for my next turn now, leaving you one tile, or whether you take your turn and then draw for your extra turn, leaving me one tile? Either way, we both have a 50% chance of drawing tile A.

Of course, once one of us has picked, the other has either a 0% or 100% chance of picking tile A. But it doesn't actually matter which order we pick, because the overall chance is 50%.
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Julius Andrikonis
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carcassebs wrote:
xipuloxx wrote:
But it doesn't matter. Your overall chance of drawing the short straw is one in six. Which order you pick them makes no difference to that.

Maybe it's because I'm rusty in that department, but shouldn't your chance of picking up the short straw decrease as the players before you chooses their straws and it's not the short one?

If two before me picks up two straws that aren't the shortest one (let's assume we can know), then shouldn't my chance of picking up the shortest one now be 1 in 4 and not 1 in 6?

I can see what this had some arguments before devil

(edited for typos)


You are correct with you example. The chance to draw the short straw in fact increases, if other players draw the long straws, and drops to 0 if any one before you gets the short one.

However, what we are saying is this: if you have six people drawing six straws. Before anyone begins, there is a 1/6 chance of you (or any other player) drawing a short straw. It doesn't depend on the order of the draw: if you draw first, you have 1/6 chance of getting the short one, also if you draw the last you have a probability of 1/6 to be left with the short one.

This is the same for Carcassone: if you are left with n tiles and need one precise tile, then you have 1/n probability of drawing it and it doesn't differ weather you draw the first, the second or the last one. If your opponent draws first and gets another tile, then your chances increase and the probability of you being successful is 1/(n-1), however your opponent has a very slight (1/n) chance of getting the tile you need and overall this all evens out.

EDIT: Ups, Mark explained the same earlier...
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Mr. Burn
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xipuloxx wrote:
I think you're confusing yourself by imagining a situation partway through and treating that as if it was the whole situation.


Indeed, I was just telling myself the last two tiles situation before I read yours and you're right, it is still 50/50.

But it still feels like you get less chance of getting it. Let's say we're 4 and there's 5 tiles left and I play a builder, the chance of getting the tile I want when there's 4 tiles left seems grander than when there will be only one left. Even though it is still up to the probability, it feels like I have more control over my faith if I pick and there's 4 tiles left rather than pick the one that's left.

I suppose it's all about perception... Thanks (both Juliusan and xipuloxx) for your help, sorry to be a stickler on that one.

(quick edit to also thank Juliusan)
 
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I'm guessing you're the guy at the black jack table that complains about the player previous to you for taking "your card".

Too funny.
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Mr. Burn
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markgravitygood wrote:
I'm guessing you're the guy at the black jack table that complains about the player previous to you for taking "your card".

Too funny.


Did we play together before blush
 
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Yee Keat Phuah
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carcassebs wrote:
Even though it is still up to the probability, it feels like I have more control over my faith if I pick and there's 4 tiles left rather than pick the one that's left.


I am guessing you don't play Race For the Galaxy?

I guess there's quite an easy way to try this out instead of showing maths equations:
1. ask another person to help participate in this experiment.
2. take two carc tiles, identify one that you want to get.
3. shuffle the tiles
4. ask the other person to pick a tile
5. you take the leftover
6. repeat 100 times and mark down the times that you actually get what you wanted.

Repeat 100 times the above again, where you get to pick first.

If you get more times of the tile that you wanted when you pick first, then, yeah your reasoning is valid, you are obviously more "lucky" than the other person. And don't play RFTG.
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