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Subject: Re-Edition of Dorn officially announced !!! rss

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Patrick Runyan
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Regarding the DK always wins vs the players always win, I think where you stand on the issue is highly dependent on your background.

I am not a strategy game person. When I play games like Warhammer 40k my tactics are essentially "charge the enemy and shoot". So I don't play those games. If you do that as the DK you lose, badly. But regardless, I still can't look at the board and instantly see a strategy. I have tried several different things as DK and each time it resulted in massacre. This is what is needed in the rulebook, or as a supplemental book: basic strategy and tactics. Like Matt said, there have been a dearth of posts explaining this stuff in the past. Maybe this is just something you either get or you don't, like musical talent. But I don't get it. So if you think playing as the DK is easy, you might be that type of person who either A) is Alexander the Great reborn or B) has 20+ years experience playing tactical wargames. But some of us just don't get it, and some instruction would be useful to bring us up to speed.

I used to think this instructional omission was a problem with Dorn. Now I just think maybe it's just not a game for me. Like Dungeon Twister. Like Advanced Squad Leader. Like Warhammer anything.

Some people are good at math. Some are good at art. I am good at math and art, but not wargames.
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Ignatius Jopy
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best news in the early 2013. no doom in 2012 and dorn coming in 2013!(hopefully)

what I like:

1. No glass gems please, it make the package too heavy.
2. Bigger or clearer marker (for the strong creatures)
3. standard size box (i have trouble to arrange the current box)and standard card size too so I can sleeve them.
4. make the heroes card stand have different outline (like okko or andor)
5. linen surface board. current board seems easily dent (combine with usage of glass gem throw by defeated heroes hehehe)

if the publisher really cannot have north america publishers, why not try the fund raiser like indiegogo, perhaps?
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Wynand Louw
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My official Dorn 2nd ed wishlist.

1) Balanced characters. (Most are, but for those who are not)
2) More maps!
3) New art
4) PLASTIC MINIATURES!
5) Standard card sizes

This should all be possible with Kickstarter: Remember that Kickstarter success is directly related to the amount of minis in a game!
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Patrick Runyan
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Bagherra wrote:
bielie wrote:

I would love for the new edition to have more maps... Hope the creators read the forums here!


Every time I look at the base map, I think to myself, "they could have made that modular based on regions". Sewers go here, forest goes there, catacombs there, etc. This would also allow expansions of just a new region to put in your map. As well, I think a modular board (adding just regions, not individual corridors like descent) would help the game scale for number of players better.


I am going to reply with my boilerplate opinion about modular maps:

Modular maps are the bane of good and balanced gameplay. Depending on how the map is set up, it may be totally preferential to one player or another. Best example: Runewars. Another example: StarCraft. I don't like it when a game can be determined by the meta game of setting up what is essentially a random map.

Now modular boards ARE cool. I do love them, but they ARE detrimental. A responsible game publisher will at least include default maps and recommendations that insure a good game. Making it modular should allow players to tweak the map for replayability. But giving the players a modular board with no direction is irresponsible.

I understand the incentives of trying to add replayability by making a gameboard modular and the costs of then playtesting to make sure every combination works. So if you are a game designer who isn't up to the task, then just don't do it. A game with a static board and good balance is far more replayable in the end than a game with a modular board that can determine the winner before the game starts by virtue of simply being a better game. I play Twilight Struggle a lot more than any other game with a modular board.

That said, I think for Dorn it wouldn't be as bad as it is for Runewars and Starcraft to split the areas up and make them modular. But I would still insist that the game be playtested with a default board layout and that the default layout be presented in the rules. Once I am bored of that, then I will try moving the forest section here and the catacombs section here...
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Sergio Macias
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bielie wrote:
Remember that Kickstarter success is directly related to the amount of minis in a game!


So (sadly) true!
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Wynand Louw
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Victor Mancha wrote:
bielie wrote:
Remember that Kickstarter success is directly related to the amount of minis in a game!


So (sadly) true!


And, I forgot to mention, exponentially related to the amount of miniatures with boobies in the game.
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John Sizemore
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I just got the first edition and the expansion, so I can't comment on the balance yet. It looks like an excellent alternative to Descent.

If the perception is that the Dornkeeper has it too tough, it seems to me that the way to balance it would be to reverse-bid for side. This would be consistent with the competitive and low-luck nature of the game. I'm not sure what would make the best bidding currency, but it would have to be something that benefits the DK: starting drops of blood, extra cards, starting mobs on the board, or number of turns with a free extra spawn come to mind. Say we pick starting mobs.

One player is chosen at random to start the reverse auction for Dornkeeper. He makes a bid: "I'll be DK for five extra mobs." Now everyone else has a choice of either playing against a keeper with 5 extra mobs starting out, or to bid 4. Since the bidding units are fairly chunky, open bidding would probably work best. Once it looks like no one else is going to bid, say "going, going, gone!" The last player to bid is the DK, and he starts with however many extra units (whatever was agreed to) as he bid.
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matthew clark
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..would upgrading the monsters work? All one hit monsters need two hits and two hit monsters require three?

I have this game but only played it three times where the DK won every time. The first time was against a gaming group that were anti-cooperative! They got a pasting. The second time was with a lot more coherent and organised group who managed to get into the ritual chamber but lost too many heroes. The third time a similar group who opened the gate to release the DK but got wiped out. If that same group played again I think they would win and would continue to do so having cracked the best strategy.
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Randall Shaw
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How does Dorn compare to Tomb or Descent?
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Patrick Runyan
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Tomb has no Dungeon Keeper, iirc, so not an appropriate comparison, imo.

I think most would agree Descent is a better game. I have never played it and have no interest in doing so. Dorn is unique enough to keep my interest, so it has that going for it.
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Alain Villars
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any news about the re-edition?

Thank you!
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John Drake
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Phantom07 wrote:
any news about the re-edition?

Thank you!

+1
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Ted Spencer
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tomb532 wrote:
Phantom07 wrote:
any news about the re-edition?

Thank you!

+1
Me, two.
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Wynand Louw
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Who can I send my money?
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Alain Villars
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Any news?
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Ted Spencer
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Not since January. This is a funny business. We have dozens of gamers ready to purchase, but nothing from the publisher.
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Solsumo
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Just posting to keep the dream alive. Wake me up when the game is kickstarted. snore
 
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Matthew Rooks
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My guess is that it's probably not going to happen. It's a great concept, but there are too many glaring fundamental holes in the gameplay to do a quick-fix. It's a shame; Dorn has wonderful artwork, game board, and a cool premise to build off of.
 
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Thom Hall
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jpwrunyan wrote:
Tomb has no Dungeon Keeper, iirc, so not an appropriate comparison, imo.

I think most would agree Descent is a better game. I have never played it and have no interest in doing so. Dorn is unique enough to keep my interest, so it has that going for it.


Sorry for the thread necromancy, but Descent is _not_ a better game. Some may prefer plastic components, but the core rules are no better. Doom was a better representation of that dice mechanic and it fit the theme much better, but that is another thread. Descent is a cake walk where Doom there is actually a chance of failure.

They also have a different scale and I would say Dorn is more like Runebound in that sense. If you want a tactical adventure game with roleplay elements Warhammer Quest or Advanced HeroQuest crushes Descent if you are willing to pay and there have been a glutton of other kickstarter miniature fests over the past couple years that fit the same niche.

Dorn is dipped in the theme and flows really well. I hope it does get a chance to hit the US market at some point.

As for the DK not having a chance, I haven't played in a bit so I will have to do some new research (play play play)

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Simon Barnes
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jpwrunyan wrote:
I think most would agree Descent is a better game.


skars wrote:
Sorry for the thread necromancy, but Descent is _not_ a better game.


Over 1000 people rate Descent a 10, only 13 do so for Dorn, in fact it only has roughly 250 ratings in total so 1 in 20 people who rated gave it top marks, whilst 1 in 8 of those who rated Descent did so.

So Patrick was right (by a long margin) that most would agree Descent is a better game.

skars wrote:
Some may prefer plastic components, but the core rules are no better


You're welcome to go through the ratings, there's a lot as I've said. But when I last checked the ratings for Descent, of those who gave top marks and made a comment, I saw no mention of the plastic. It was all about the gameplay.

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UA Darth
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simon_j_barnes wrote:
jpwrunyan wrote:
I think most would agree Descent is a better game.


skars wrote:
Sorry for the thread necromancy, but Descent is _not_ a better game.


Over 1000 people rate Descent a 10, only 13 do so for Dorn, in fact it only has roughly 250 ratings in total so 1 in 20 people who rated gave it top marks, whilst 1 in 8 of those who rated Descent did so.

So Patrick was right (by a long margin) that most would agree Descent is a better game.

skars wrote:
Some may prefer plastic components, but the core rules are no better


You're welcome to go through the ratings, there's a lot as I've said. But when I last checked the ratings for Descent, of those who gave top marks and made a comment, I saw no mention of the plastic. It was all about the gameplay.



His statement was that he believed that Descent was not the better game. His opinion has nothing to do with the stats of peoples' ratings on the site.
 
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Matthew Rooks
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It's been over a year since the original "announcement," so not looking good. And it's been several years since noting the game-breaking imbalance between DK and heroes with zero mention of viable DK strategies, so unfortunately I think the great potential this game had will never be fully realized.
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Simon Barnes
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shadow9d9 wrote:
His statement was that he believed that Descent was not the better game. His opinion has nothing to do with the stats of peoples' ratings on the site.


....and my statement was that jpwrunyan's statement was correct, which is backed up by stats of peoples ratings on the site.
 
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UA Darth
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simon_j_barnes wrote:
shadow9d9 wrote:
His statement was that he believed that Descent was not the better game. His opinion has nothing to do with the stats of peoples' ratings on the site.


....and my statement was that jpwrunyan's statement was correct, which is backed up by stats of peoples ratings on the site.


When it comes to opinions, there is no correct. Just like Mcdonalds is not necessarily the best food in the world.

He made no claim that stats back up his opinion. He just stated his opinion.
 
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David desJardins
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shadow9d9 wrote:
When it comes to opinions, there is no correct. Just like Mcdonalds is not necessarily the best food in the world.

He made no claim that stats back up his opinion. He just stated his opinion.


You are out to lunch, as usual.

The statement was, "I think most would agree Descent is a better game." Obviously, you do back that up by looking at most people's ratings.
 
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