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Subject: Eeek! A butter knife! Protect us big government!! rss

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Boaty McBoatface
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The law bans the sale of knifes, this is so that arselholes do not try to circumvent that law by claiming it's not an illegal knife (if yu try to play semantics to get around laws laws are tight to preclude such semantics).

I agree it's silly, but then if people did not play silly games we would not need silly laws.

EKK they are used in attacks,[url] http://www.standard.co.uk/news/boss-stabbed-employee-with-bu...[/url]
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Dave G
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bjlillo wrote:


Words fail me.


Where's this from?
 
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slatersteven wrote:
I agree it's silly, but then if people did not play silly games we would not need silly laws.


I agree with Slater, the reason for so many of the stupid laws in the world is because of rules lawyers trying to game the system. The same crappy people who try to twist boardgame rules interpretation to get an advantage they can't get because of their piss-poor play are the same type of people who try to get off of elevated charges because they stabbed their drug dealer with a butter knife, not a "real" knife.
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Lance Peterson
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That is silly. Who has ever heard of a mass murderer using a knife to kill his victims. Except of course for Jack the Ripper, William MacDonald, Edward Edwards, Larry Eyler, John Joubert, Craig Price, Nathaniel White, and The Doodler for starters.

Not to mention the skill that the Tonton Macoute and the Hutus exhibited in using machetes. To think that you can carry out genocide using machetes. Give a man any kind of weapon and he can do amazing things with it.
 
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Daniel Edwards
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Living in the east side of London I see signs like this round the place from time to time but only on actual knives. The sign is partly for the shop owner to say "Don't buy your stabby things here". I'd go with re-shelving of product as a possibility.

But then south and east London have a big problem with knife violence. Or more accurately young black kids stabbing each other on buses and so forth.

Of course this is all because they can't actually get their hands on firearms. So could be worse hey?

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myopia wrote:
The sign is partly for the shop owner to say "Don't buy your stabby things here".


It probably wasn't the laws original intent, but I can totally see this evolving. Now a shop-owner doesn't have to feel like they are going to be held responsible for discrimination because they didn't sell four gang-bangers each a table setting. Now they can say, "sorry, against the law".
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Daniel Edwards
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bjlillo wrote:
myopia wrote:
Living in the east side of London I see signs like this round the place from time to time but only on actual knives. The sign is partly for the shop owner to say "Don't buy your stabby things here". I'd go with re-shelving of product as a possibility.

But then south and east London have a big problem with knife violence. Or more accurately young black kids stabbing each other on buses and so forth.

Of course this is all because they can't actually get their hands on firearms. So could be worse hey?


Oh yeah, gotta keep the butter knives out of the hands of those black kids.


Fucking please BJ. This is just thread #235 of Big Government bad for you. When you, I and everyone else reading this thread knows that noone ever has or ever will be prosecuted in the UK for selling a butter knife.

But feel free to argue that a society that allows young teenagers to buy knives is better than one that doesn't particularly when one segment of that society has a particular problem with kids stabbing each other. It can be more free or something.
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Born To Lose, Live To Win
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bjlillo wrote:

Oh yeah, gotta keep the butter knives out of the hands of those black kids.


You are drifting off message, if you want to hold the line on the point "guns don't kill people, people kill people" and "if you take away their guns, they'll kill with knives" then mocking the fact that kids (black or otherwise) do stab people with them is muddying the waters.
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Boaty McBoatface
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bjlillo wrote:
myopia wrote:
Fucking please BJ. This is just thread #235 of Big Government bad for you. When you, I and everyone else reading this thread knows that noone ever has or ever will be prosecuted in the UK for selling a butter knife.

But feel free to argue that a society that allows young teenagers to buy knives is better than one that doesn't particularly when one segment of that society has a particular problem with kids stabbing each other. It can be more free or something.


You make a very good kept citizen. Your betters in government must be pleased with your compliance.
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bjlillo wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
We make our children eat everything with spoons.

GRAPEFRUIT SPOONS!


I wonder if grapefruit spoons are covered by this law. You could hurt your mouth with those things if you're not careful.


Before you know it, the Taco Bell spork will be going by the wayside.
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Daniel Edwards
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bjlillo wrote:
myopia wrote:
Fucking please BJ. This is just thread #235 of Big Government bad for you. When you, I and everyone else reading this thread knows that noone ever has or ever will be prosecuted in the UK for selling a butter knife.

But feel free to argue that a society that allows young teenagers to buy knives is better than one that doesn't particularly when one segment of that society has a particular problem with kids stabbing each other. It can be more free or something.


You make a very good kept citizen. Your betters in government must be pleased with your compliance.


Well I'll admit that after the time I had to physically intervene and pull some kids of another they were trying to bash on the bus I was travelling on I am positive towards things that make it even marginally less likely that I will have a knife pulled on me.

Thats got nothing to do with government compliance though.
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myopia wrote:
Well I'll admit that after the time I had to physically intervene and pull some kids of another they were trying to bash on the bus I was travelling on I am positive towards things that make it even marginally less likely that I will have a knife pulled on me.

Thats got nothing to do with government compliance though.


Yeah, but it's a butter knife, they can't possibly hurt you with one of those. It would just bounce off your hardened cotton sweater.
 
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Daniel Edwards
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TheChin! wrote:
myopia wrote:
Well I'll admit that after the time I had to physically intervene and pull some kids of another they were trying to bash on the bus I was travelling on I am positive towards things that make it even marginally less likely that I will have a knife pulled on me.

Thats got nothing to do with government compliance though.


Yeah, but it's a butter knife, they can't possibly hurt you with one of those. It would just bounce off your hardened cotton sweater.


OK if we're actually going down the butter knives are dangerous route then it should be evident the sign is no laughing matter.
 
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David desJardins
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bjlillo wrote:
Words fail me.


But is it true? And do you care?
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Steve Vondra
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bjlillo wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
We make our children eat everything with spoons.

GRAPEFRUIT SPOONS!


I wonder if grapefruit spoons are covered by this law. You could hurt your mouth with those things if you're not careful.
Forget it kid... You'll put your eye out.
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myopia wrote:
OK if we're actually going down the butter knives are dangerous route then it should be evident the sign is no laughing matter.


Well, they are dangerous in the way that a sharpened screwdriver is dangerous, so if I were the dangerous stabbing type, I'd probably just go with the screwdriver if I can't buy knives. It seems that in the end, the sign is more for the protection of the shop than the victims of violent youths.
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TheChin! wrote:
myopia wrote:
OK if we're actually going down the butter knives are dangerous route then it should be evident the sign is no laughing matter.


Well, they are dangerous in the way that a sharpened screwdriver is dangerous, so if I were the dangerous stabbing type, I'd probably just go with the screwdriver if I can't buy knives. It seems that in the end, the sign is more for the protection of the shop than the victims of violent youths.


Further, if you do exclude butter knives as deadly then some ammoral entrepreneur will market butter knives that are better at stabbing to get around the law and tap that market of children (actual and/or maturity-stunted-adults) who need to spread on their toast and protect themselves on the bus.
 
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David desJardins
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bjlillo wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
bjlillo wrote:
Words fail me.


But is it true? And do you care?


Quote:
6 Sale of knives and certain articles with blade or point to persons under sixteen.(1)After section 141 of the M1Criminal Justice Act 1988 (offensive weapons) there is inserted—
“141A Sale of knives and certain articles with blade or point to persons under sixteen.(1)Any person who sells to a person under the age of sixteen years an article to which this section applies shall be guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months, or a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale, or both.
(2)Subject to subsection (3) below, this section applies to—
(a)any knife, knife blade or razor blade,
(b)any axe, and
(c)any other article which has a blade or which is sharply pointed and which is made or adapted for use for causing injury to the person.


Yes, I read that. But, to know what it means, you would need the case law in the UK on what is a knife. My guess is that butter knives, plastic knives, pictures of knives, etc., are not covered by this law. But someone who has actually practiced law in the UK and has handled cases under this statute would know for sure.
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Lee Fisher
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Should only scary looking "Assault Butter Knives" be banned?
 
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MGK
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Drew1365 wrote:
But this is just crazy talk. BJ is right. You're "kept citizens." You have no clue about liberty anymore.


Putting aside the usual spoiled-child definition of "liberty" as "I get to do what I wanna" and the conservative masturbatory fantasy of "overthrowing" government, I am pretty sure that British citizens still get to vote out MPs who vote for laws re: knife sales of which they might disapprove.
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David desJardins
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Drew1365 wrote:
But this is just crazy talk. BJ is right. You're "kept citizens." You have no clue about liberty anymore. Growing up in the 70s, I didn't know a kid who didn't have a pocket knife. Kids brought them to school to show off, and this was considered "normal." As far as I'm concerned, it's still normal behavior. I still carry one regularly, because a well-featured pocket knife is one the most useful gadgets you can carry.


My guess is that the law cited here doesn't apply to small pocket knives either. Of course, no one seems to care what it actually applies to.

Britain does have a big problem with knife violence. What I wonder is, do the people who say "I carried a knife as a tool and it was fine," actually care about widespread knife attacks? Does it bother you when people are harmed? Would you rather see less of that?
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David desJardins
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bjlillo wrote:
That's a nice guess. Do you care if it's true?


Yes. That's why I'm asking, my hope was that of all of the people posting angrily about it, some of them would be inspired to do the research and find out what the facts are.
 
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David desJardins
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bjlillo wrote:
I showed you the pertinent part of the law. Sorry that the actual law isn't enough evidence for your standards. Don't mistake my tone in this thread for angry.


I don't really understand your response. The law doesn't tell you what's considered "a knife" under that law. You must understand that, right? You can't tell just from reading that law whether or not it actually bars sales of dinner settings. The case law and other statutes determine what the law actually means. You would need a UK lawyer with experience in this area---or a whole lot more research---to know exactly how it applies.
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DaviddesJ wrote:
But, to know what it means, you would need the case law in the UK on what is a knife. My guess is that butter knives, plastic knives, pictures of knives, etc., are not covered by this law. But someone who has actually practiced law in the UK and has handled cases under this statute would know for sure.


Here's a start:

https://www.gov.uk/find-out-if-i-can-buy-or-carry-a-knife

It does just say "knife of any kind" and specifically refers to cutlery. Though that's buying under 18, not carrying (which is basically folding under 3 inches).

Plastic knives are interesting. The first thing I think of is those silly little plastic knives that are almost easier to snap than cut with. But I've also seen plastic kitchen knives that would be quite up to doing serious damage. As someone said, writing rules to differentiate cases is hard - and harder when people try to game the system.

There's also that "without good reason" it quotes, whatever that means.
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Green Dan
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Drew1365 wrote:
myopia wrote:
But feel free to argue that a society that allows young teenagers to buy knives is better than one that doesn't particularly when one segment of that society has a particular problem with kids stabbing each other. It can be more free or something.


But this is just crazy talk. BJ is right. You're "kept citizens." You have no clue about liberty anymore. Growing up in the 70s, I didn't know a kid who didn't have a pocket knife. Kids brought them to school to show off, and this was considered "normal." As far as I'm concerned, it's still normal behavior. I still carry one regularly, because a well-featured pocket knife is one the most useful gadgets you can carry.

A society that will not allow a child to purchase a pocket knife is a conquered and defeated society. You need to figure out who it is who has conquered you and set about overthrowing them.


Kids are still allowed to have knives. They're just not allowed to buy knives. Don't let a little thing like reality get in the way though.
https://www.gov.uk/find-out-if-i-can-buy-or-carry-a-knife
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