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Subject: Counting cards rss

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Carl Bussema
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Is the # of cards left in the corp's deck fair game for either player to count?

Here's where it mattered:
Runner is Noise with 2 agenda points and $3, 3 cards in hand (2 brain damage). No tags.
Corp is Weyland at 6 agenda points and $2. (5 points have been removed from game through archer and posted bounty). 5 cards in hand. There is no card installed in the only remote server.

Only one copy of Hostile Takeover has been spotted, so there's a real risk that the corp has HT in hand and plans to install advance advance to win on his next turn.

Runner has $3, and 3 cards in hand (2 brain damage) at start of turn. Aesop's is installed and the runner has plenty of targets he could kill for the $3 without having an impact on the turn.

Runner's hand is: Parasite, Parasite, Datasucker.

Clearly, if the corp's deck has 3 or fewer cards in it, the correct play is to sacrifice anything to Aesop, install, install, install, win when the corp can't draw.

If the corp's deck has 4 or more cards in it, the correct play is to run HQ (there is no rezzed ice, and you have corroder, ninja, crypsis, yog, and ice carver and some datasucker counters so anything cheap enough to be rezzed is not a big threat) as many times as possible, fishing for a presumed HT and/or other agenda (considering how few agendas have been seen, it seems likely they are here).

If the exact size is not allowed to be known but it looks small, what would you as the runner do?
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Jean-Philippe Thériault
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Number of cards in deck is open information. You ask for a count. If they don't say yes, you call a judge so they'll force them to give you a count. If this is not a tournament setting, you pick their deck and count yourself. If they object, punch them in the face. (okay, not really)
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Chris Long
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XDarkAngelX wrote:
Number of cards in deck is open information.


What?!?!?! soblueyukgulpshakezombie
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Wesley Austin Kinslow
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radynski wrote:
XDarkAngelX wrote:
Number of cards in deck is open information.


What?!?!?! soblueyukgulpshakezombie


That should be correct - as long as it isn't disrupting the game (i.e. asking the cards in deck every turn to stall) then amount of deck left is certainly open information. Especially considering it is an avenue to victory (although a narrow one) for the Runner.
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Frank Brooks
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radynski wrote:
XDarkAngelX wrote:
Number of cards in deck is open information.


What?!?!?! soblueyukgulpshakezombie


Yup, so are the cards in the Heap. Then the corp can always just count up the influence of used cards and the cards in play to see whether there are any more OoF (out of faction) cards still available to be played or if so, how much influence they have added up to.

"Hmm? Could there be another Inside Job?"
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Mychal
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If it can affect the outcome of the game (in a game that specifically has a win condition based on decking), then it seems reasonable that you should be able to ask in a moment where it would matter in your decision-making.
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Oliver
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Skylar114 wrote:
If it can affect the outcome of the game (in a game that specifically has a win condition based on decking), then it seems reasonable that you should be able to ask in a moment where it would matter in your decision-making.


I would actually assume the exact opposite of what you stated. Although I have no reason for it. shake
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Gregory Pettigrew
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XDarkAngelX wrote:
Number of cards in deck is open information. You ask for a count. If they don't say yes, you call a judge so they'll force them to give you a count. If this is not a tournament setting, you pick their deck and count yourself. If they object, punch them in the face. (okay, not really)


While I can't find anywhere in the rulebook that indicates that the size of either player's deck is public knowledge, what is public knowledge is the number of cards that have been drawn/trashed/removed from the game/etc. from R&D as well as the number of Agenda Points for a Corp deck of a given size. So you could certainly infer how many cards are left, but probably only to within about +/-10 cards (depends on how many Agendas Points have been seen).
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Mychal
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OliverOil wrote:
Skylar114 wrote:
If it can affect the outcome of the game (in a game that specifically has a win condition based on decking), then it seems reasonable that you should be able to ask in a moment where it would matter in your decision-making.


I would actually assume the exact opposite of what you stated. Although I have no reason for it. shake

If I'm allowed to check the number of cards in your grip before I decide to play my Scorched Earth, it seems logical I'd be allowed to check the number of cards in your deck before I decide to try decking you out.

I'm not saying that's an actual/official ruling, it's just what seems most in the spirit of the game to me.
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Bart Rachemoss
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etherial wrote:
[...] you could certainly infer how many cards are left, but probably only to within about +/-10 cards (depends on how many Agendas Points have been seen).

I don't think this is true because there are still 2 unknowns: the total number of cards in the deck and the total number of agenda points. You have no reasonable idea of what the max number of cards left is**. You can deduce a minimum number of cards left based on the agenda points you have already seen but I don't think this is very useful.

**Of course there is an absolute max based on the limited number of cards and agendas that have been released.
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Steven Tu
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We ask each other about the size of our decks when it gets down to a few cards. The only logical alternative would be to expect anyone in a tournament setting to start counting and writing down how many cards the opponent has drawn to get an idea how many cards may be left. I refuse to believe that any game designer would instigate that kind of behaviour in a game like this.

Of course if evidence to the contrary were to be supplied, I'll gladly stick to the ruling given. Until then I shall play as my common sense dictates.

Noone has to agree with me, by the by, these are just my opinions
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Oliver
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Skylar114 wrote:
OliverOil wrote:
Skylar114 wrote:
If it can affect the outcome of the game (in a game that specifically has a win condition based on decking), then it seems reasonable that you should be able to ask in a moment where it would matter in your decision-making.


I would actually assume the exact opposite of what you stated. Although I have no reason for it. shake

If I'm allowed to check the number of cards in your grip before I decide to play my Scorched Earth, it seems logical I'd be allowed to check the number of cards in your deck before I decide to try decking you out.

I'm not saying that's an actual/official ruling, it's just what seems most in the spirit of the game to me.


I believe your rationalisation would fall under the category of apples and oranges. I don't disagree, though, that it feels right.
 
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Gregory Pettigrew
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Skylar114 wrote:
If I'm allowed to check the number of cards in your grip before I decide to play my Scorched Earth, it seems logical I'd be allowed to check the number of cards in your deck before I decide to try decking you out.

I'm not saying that's an actual/official ruling, it's just what seems most in the spirit of the game to me.


The logical difference here is that the number of cards in your grip is a known quantity. It never changes by a random or secret amount. The size of my deck, AFAICT, is only explicitly known by me and the TO.

The philosophical difference here is that while a lot of what the Runner does is public information, a lot of what the Corp does is secret.
 
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João Almeida
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The official rules say that you can shuffle your opponent's deck before the match starts. There's no rule about "not shuffling in a way that you'd be able to count the cards".
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Carl Bussema
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I submitted the question to FFG and will reply here when they reply.
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Sjoerd Dijkstra
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The rules state - if memory serves - that both players may look in all discard piles at all times. The runner may of course not see the closed cards in archives. That info + cards on the table + cards in hand gives the info you need.

While asking for a draw deck count per se may not be in the rules and you may not be forced to allow a count, you may as well count on request to save both sides a lot of time.
 
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Sjoerd Dijkstra
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etherial wrote:
Skylar114 wrote:
If I'm allowed to check the number of cards in your grip before I decide to play my Scorched Earth, it seems logical I'd be allowed to check the number of cards in your deck before I decide to try decking you out.

I'm not saying that's an actual/official ruling, it's just what seems most in the spirit of the game to me.


The logical difference here is that the number of cards in your grip is a known quantity. It never changes by a random or secret amount. The size of my deck, AFAICT, is only explicitly known by me and the TO.

The philosophical difference here is that while a lot of what the Runner does is public information, a lot of what the Corp does is secret.
pre match, shuffle by making piles and count the cards. Problem solved, then card number is known by he runner as well.
 
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Chris Long
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wedgeex wrote:
radynski wrote:
XDarkAngelX wrote:
Number of cards in deck is open information.


What?!?!?! soblueyukgulpshakezombie


That should be correct - as long as it isn't disrupting the game (i.e. asking the cards in deck every turn to stall) then amount of deck left is certainly open information.


Okay, that's totally my fault. For some reason, I read that response as "Your exact decklist is open information" instead of "the number of cards remaining in R&D is open information". Not sure what I was thinking, so just ignore me. Nothing to see here...
 
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Malefact
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Shurdus wrote:
pre match, shuffle by making piles and count the cards. Problem solved, then card number is known by he runner as well.


As an aside - if this was a tournament setting, the cards should then be "normal" shuffled after the pile shuffle to ensure that they are randomised.
 
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Carl Bussema
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Lukas wrote:

Yes, either player can request the number of cards left in his opponent's deck, or count his own. Number of cards left in a deck is open information.
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B C Z
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Why is everyone always asking how big everyone else's deck is?

I'm actually surprised at that ruling, but it can help when trying to figure out where the missing Agenda are.

Knowing spent cards is obviously legal - especially since the Corp can pick up the Runner's heap at any point, but having unspent card counts be public information isn't listed anywhere in any document.
 
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Gregory Pettigrew
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byronczimmer wrote:
Knowing spent cards is obviously legal - especially since the Corp can pick up the Runner's heap at any point, but having unspent card counts be public information isn't listed anywhere in any document.


The OP's question was "I think I can deck the Corp this turn (and therefore win): Can I ask precisely how many cards are left in R&D?"
 
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Tony Miller
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The number of cards left in a deck (but not their makeup) being public knowledge is pretty common. I know that the GoT LCG has that same rule, but no one ever brought it up unless they were running a mill deck. I'm not surprised at the ruling, and I also don't think that it will come up often in practice.
 
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Justin
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byronczimmer wrote:
Knowing spent cards is obviously legal - especially since the Corp can pick up the Runner's heap at any point, but having unspent card counts be public information isn't listed anywhere in any document.

And? It isn't listed as private either. But you can count your opponent's deck when you shuffle it, as others mentioned. And you can, with tournament-mandated sleeves, have a shot at actually counting them by staring at their deck - or using a magnifying glass. And then maybe they could counter this by intentionally playing with slim sleeves, and hard-packing their decks after every draw. Sort of like people spreading their cards out on the table or even gumming them to the ceiling of one to avoid the legendary Chaos Orb.

I'm relieved by this ruling because of the realism I think it indicates, moreso than the frequency I expect to count down my opponent's decks.
 
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Carl Bussema
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I would likely only ask my opponent how many cards were in his deck if I thought I had a realistic shot of decking him, or if I was in a position where I had to choose between getting in to R&D this turn or getting in to HQ, and I wanted to estimate where I thought the points were, since for whatever reason, I didn't feel like his play style was giving me enough information about whether he had agendas in hand.
 
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