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Subject: Some anti-abortion legislators aren't even trying to look sane rss

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Chad Ellis
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If I didn't know it before joining my local Town Meeting I certainly know now that "one legislator proposes batshit-crazy law" doesn't mean anything.

But seriously, what the fuck. Cathrynn Brown (R - no kidding) of the New Mexico legislature has introduced a bill making an exception for abortions when the pregnancy is due to rape.

The exception? If you're raped and get pregnant, that fetus is evidence -- and if you have an abortion (or provide or facilitate one) you're guilty of felony evidence tampering.

Brown claims that she's introducing the bill to protect women from men who might rape them and then help them get an abortion to destroy the evidence. Good for her.
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I get the impression that US politics at the moment is about the crazies and extremists. It seems from over here that moderates and sane people-- whether on abortion, gun control or immigration-- really on anything-- just get drowned out in the crazy rhetoric.

The vast majority of Americans are probably sane normal people within certain cultural bounds. Yet who gets to talk? The analog of that that crazy relative everybody dreads getting cornered by at the family reunion.
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That's not helped by our media, which is sensationalist, lazy and often partisan.

This bill isn't going anywhere (Democrats have majorities in both chambers) and for all I know it may not even have a second, let alone any significant support. Most likely it's just proof that there are some idiots in state politics which is like proof that there is corn syrup in some fast food products. But it's still a "story" that people can get upset about; the Huffpost story on it has over 33,000 Facebook likes already.
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Basically, the GOP and a handful of Conservative Billionaires helped take over the Libertarian Tea Party movement to create the Republican "wave" in the 2010 election. They patted themselves on the back and went back to lighting their cigars with hundred dollar bills.

But the Tea Party didn't go away and now it's splitting the GOP in two. Basically, if you're a Republican elected official, your choices are (a) court the Tea Party vote, or (b) run against a Tea Party-selected lunatic in a primary election.

And the worse things get, the more some GOP representatives are doubling-down and doubling-down again on their whackado policies, as if there's a prize for being the furthest Right crazy in the pile.

It's pretty horrific. But, for whatever it's worth, I think there's a light at the end of the tunnel. The narrative in the media seems to be shifting away from "the do-nothing Congress" to "what the fuck is going on with the GOP?" Demographically, the party needs to be appealing to the same minority groups they're actively working to repel.

I'm terribly curious to see how the 2014 midterm election goes. If the GOP takes another drubbing -- as seems quite possible right now -- it may be a long, long time before the party recovers, if it ever does.
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Yes, but don't pretend that all the idiots are Republicans. Plenty are but screaming "Crazy gun-nut!" and "Evil NRA!" whenever anyone even tries to have a rational discussion about what the Second Amendment can, does or should mean in practice doesn't exactly help.
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whac3 wrote:
Yes, but don't pretend that all the idiots are Republicans. Plenty are but screaming "Crazy gun-nut!" and "Evil NRA!" whenever anyone even tries to have a rational discussion about what the Second Amendment can, does or should mean in practice doesn't exactly help.


Those people are just as bad as the "they want to take every gun away" or "A revolver or knife is just as good as a 9mm with an 18 round clip (sorry magazine)" crowd.

I'm getting really tired of both sides these days. shake
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I bet she's just preparing for a run in 2014's Senate contest against Tom Udall. Staking out a ridiculous position on abortion for rape victims is apparently a requirement for GOP candidates these days.

http://www.ginandtacos.com/2013/01/23/2012-lieberman-award-w...
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Meanwhile, in Colorado, a Catholic hospital is attempting to lessen malpractice charges brought against it when a woman pregnant with twins died on its watch by arguing that fetuses aren't people.

So, to sum up: fetuses are people! Except when they, like, cost you money and stuff, in which case they aren't.
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whac3 wrote:
Yes, but don't pretend that all the idiots are Republicans. Plenty are but screaming "Crazy gun-nut!" and "Evil NRA!" whenever anyone even tries to have a rational discussion about what the Second Amendment can, does or should mean in practice doesn't exactly help.
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It's only a de-rail if this thread is nothing but partisan GOP-bashing. If that's what it's for, go ahead, but don't expect an interesting conversation.
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MaximumPain wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Yes, but don't pretend that all the idiots are Republicans. Plenty are but screaming "Crazy gun-nut!" and "Evil NRA!" whenever anyone even tries to have a rational discussion about what the Second Amendment can, does or should mean in practice doesn't exactly help.


Those people are just as bad as the "they want to take every gun away" or "A revolver or knife is just as good as a 9mm with an 18 round clip (sorry magazine)" crowd.

I'm getting really tired of both sides these days. shake


Because you see forcing a woman to carry a rapists child to term exactly the same as limiting high capacity magazines? Much like j-walking is equivalent to arson as both are criminal acts.

Frankly, I want to keep my firearms BECAUSE there are elected officials like this one. Government doesn't belong in our bedrooms, our marriages, or our doctors offices.
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Rulesjd wrote:
MaximumPain wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Yes, but don't pretend that all the idiots are Republicans. Plenty are but screaming "Crazy gun-nut!" and "Evil NRA!" whenever anyone even tries to have a rational discussion about what the Second Amendment can, does or should mean in practice doesn't exactly help.


Those people are just as bad as the "they want to take every gun away" or "A revolver or knife is just as good as a 9mm with an 18 round clip (sorry magazine)" crowd.

I'm getting really tired of both sides these days. shake


Because you see forcing a woman to carry a rapists child to term exactly the same as limiting high capacity magazines? Much like j-walking is equivalent to arson as both are criminal acts.

Frankly, I want to keep my firearms BECAUSE there are elected officials like this one. Government doesn't belong in our bedrooms, our marriages, or our doctors offices.

I think the point was more that both sides have their screaming, er, talking points.
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whac3 wrote:
Rulesjd wrote:
MaximumPain wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Yes, but don't pretend that all the idiots are Republicans. Plenty are but screaming "Crazy gun-nut!" and "Evil NRA!" whenever anyone even tries to have a rational discussion about what the Second Amendment can, does or should mean in practice doesn't exactly help.


Those people are just as bad as the "they want to take every gun away" or "A revolver or knife is just as good as a 9mm with an 18 round clip (sorry magazine)" crowd.

I'm getting really tired of both sides these days. :shake:


Because you see forcing a woman to carry a rapists child to term exactly the same as limiting high capacity magazines? Much like j-walking is equivalent to arson as both are criminal acts.

Frankly, I want to keep my firearms BECAUSE there are elected officials like this one. Government doesn't belong in our bedrooms, our marriages, or our doctors offices.

I think the point was more that both sides have their screaming, er, talking points.


Both sides aren't equal so you shouldn't try to make it seem like they are.

The non stop rape and abortion brigade is the GOP. The Democrats have nothing similar to that insanity.
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shadow9d9 wrote:

Both sides aren't equal so you shouldn't try to make it seem like they are.

The non stop rape and abortion brigade is the GOP. The Democrats have nothing similar to that insanity.

My, my. Somebody needs a nappy changed.

I'm not comparing what they're screaming about. What I compare is the use of scare tactics. If I scream at the Republican base about how women might be denied an abortion, that isn't one of their hot-buttons and so they wouldn't (speaking in broad-strokes/stereotypes only) much care. If they were the Democratic base, this would work them into a frenzy.

On the other hand, if I'd said "how big government is going to take your guns and make the US a dictatorship" the Democratic base would laugh and the Republican base would go into a frenzy.

Each are the group's selected hot-button topics. Is there part of this you can;t get?
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whac3 wrote:
shadow9d9 wrote:

Both sides aren't equal so you shouldn't try to make it seem like they are.

The non stop rape and abortion brigade is the GOP. The Democrats have nothing similar to that insanity.

My, my. Somebody needs a nappy changed.

I'm not comparing what they're screaming about. What I compare is the use of scare tactics. If I scream at the Republican base about how women might be denied an abortion, that isn't one of their hot-buttons and so they wouldn't (speaking in broad-strokes/stereotypes only) much care. If they were the Democratic base, this would work them into a frenzy.

On the other hand, if I'd said "how big government is going to take your guns and make the US a dictatorship" the Democratic base would laugh and the Republican base would go into a frenzy.

Each are the group's selected hot-button topics. Is there part of this you can;t get?


Every time you start an argument with an insult, do you think it improves your message or unravels your argument a bit?

We get it. You are doing the typical "they are both bad, so vote republican."

Guns are an easily accessible way to kill people, and it is happening pretty frequently. A perfectly valid solution is to reduce access or take away guns.

You try to compare this to the Republican rape brigade, their vaginal wand legislation, or their pro rapist legislation as if they are on the same planet.

Here is a guide to what Republicans(congress or congressional candidates and a governor or 2) have been saying: http://brainwrap.com/various/gop_rape_advisory_megachart.gif

Feel free to link the equivalence on the democrat side. You will not find it. You will not find an equivalence to trying to add an unnecessary and physically invasive medical procedure to try to shame women. You will not see legislation to force women to keep pregnancies after rape. Your false equivalence must be called out.

You see, the problem with you and your ilk, is that you like to spout opinion as fact. Here is your chance to back it up. Give us a list of the insanity coming out of major players in the democratic party(legislators, etc) and legislation being pushed by democrats that are near the level of insanity as the republicans. Then we could talk.

Til then, all you have is "they are both bad, so vote republican."
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ohbalto wrote:
Basically, the GOP and a handful of Conservative Billionaires helped take over the Libertarian Tea Party movement to create the Republican "wave" in the 2010 election. They patted themselves on the back and went back to lighting their cigars with hundred dollar bills.

But the Tea Party didn't go away and now it's splitting the GOP in two. Basically, if you're a Republican elected official, your choices are (a) court the Tea Party vote, or (b) run against a Tea Party-selected lunatic in a primary election.

And the worse things get, the more some GOP representatives are doubling-down and doubling-down again on their whackado policies, as if there's a prize for being the furthest Right crazy in the pile.

It's pretty horrific. But, for whatever it's worth, I think there's a light at the end of the tunnel. The narrative in the media seems to be shifting away from "the do-nothing Congress" to "what the fuck is going on with the GOP?" Demographically, the party needs to be appealing to the same minority groups they're actively working to repel.

I'm terribly curious to see how the 2014 midterm election goes. If the GOP takes another drubbing -- as seems quite possible right now -- it may be a long, long time before the party recovers, if it ever does.


I'm no expert, but what I've read indicates that republicans will take no more major hits until the 2020 census unless there are some significant and unexpected population shifts because the current districts were drawn to keep the republicans secure.

So they can't capture the presidency and may grow or shrink with their senate seats but they can hold their house seats until hell freezes over or the 2020 census moves the lines.
 
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whac3 wrote:
shadow9d9 wrote:

Both sides aren't equal so you shouldn't try to make it seem like they are.

The non stop rape and abortion brigade is the GOP. The Democrats have nothing similar to that insanity.

My, my. Somebody needs a nappy changed.

I'm not comparing what they're screaming about. What I compare is the use of scare tactics. If I scream at the Republican base about how women might be denied an abortion, that isn't one of their hot-buttons and so they wouldn't (speaking in broad-strokes/stereotypes only) much care. If they were the Democratic base, this would work them into a frenzy.

On the other hand, if I'd said "how big government is going to take your guns and make the US a dictatorship" the Democratic base would laugh and the Republican base would go into a frenzy.

Each are the group's selected hot-button topics. Is there part of this you can;t get?


Yea but my liberal friends didn't go bat shit crazy over Bush.

My conservative friends are talking about guns and revolution and a 3rd term / "king" obama, etc. These are people I would have considered rational. I blame facebook for working them up. Apparently they are also going to not game with our more liberal friends any more. Apparently the liberals and conservatives are going at it with sharp knives on facebook right now.
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maxo-texas wrote:
whac3 wrote:
shadow9d9 wrote:

Both sides aren't equal so you shouldn't try to make it seem like they are.

The non stop rape and abortion brigade is the GOP. The Democrats have nothing similar to that insanity.

My, my. Somebody needs a nappy changed.

I'm not comparing what they're screaming about. What I compare is the use of scare tactics. If I scream at the Republican base about how women might be denied an abortion, that isn't one of their hot-buttons and so they wouldn't (speaking in broad-strokes/stereotypes only) much care. If they were the Democratic base, this would work them into a frenzy.

On the other hand, if I'd said "how big government is going to take your guns and make the US a dictatorship" the Democratic base would laugh and the Republican base would go into a frenzy.

Each are the group's selected hot-button topics. Is there part of this you can;t get?


Yea but my liberal friends didn't go bat shit crazy over Bush.

My conservative friends are talking about guns and revolution and a 3rd term / "king" obama, etc. These are people I would have considered rational. I blame facebook for working them up. Apparently they are also going to not game with our more liberal friends any more. Apparently the liberals and conservatives are going at it with sharp knives on facebook right now.


I think we should also define "liberal." There is one liberal in the Senate, a socialist. The democrats are a middle/right party, and Obama has been pretty far on the right end of that spectrum.

The Republicans MUST keep pushing the message that because they are as extreme as they are, that the other party MUST be on the opposite extreme. They can't say that they are fighting against a moderate/right party.
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maxo-texas wrote:


Yea but my liberal friends didn't go bat shit crazy over Bush.

My conservative friends are talking about guns and revolution and a 3rd term / "king" obama, etc. These are people I would have considered rational. I blame facebook for working them up. Apparently they are also going to not game with our more liberal friends any more. Apparently the liberals and conservatives are going at it with sharp knives on facebook right now.


Funny... many of my "liberal" friends went entirely bat shit crazy over "Bush". Just as if not more crazy than my current Republican friends are over Obama. Some liberals went as far as cutting off any liberal friends who were dating or even friends with Republicans. You didn't even have to be a republican yourself, just hanging around with some of them got you "banned" from their social circles.

Dozens of moderates and socially liberal Republicans in my social circles were "Unfriended" on LiveJournal (Which was the "social media" where all my Sci-Fi friends and I used to hang out) by dozens of the liberals my social circle in the weeks after Bush won his second term. And stayed that way. Even though these had been people they had known in real life, called close friends and attended conventions with and/or gone on joint vacations with for years. Many who had attended each others Weddings or visited after children were born etc.

One of my friends was in Germany with her husband due to his job and he was due to cycle back to here but after Bush won a second term she refused to come back to the USA so he had to extend his overseas assignment. She even refused to *VISIT*, cutting the grandparents off from their grandchildren for those 4 years unless they went to Europe.

I had about half a dozen Canadian friends, who used to come to the USA for Sci-Fi conventions, just like many of us from here went to Canada for them, who declared on all our "Sci-Fi" boards that they wouldn't set foot in the USA for the next 4 years if Bush won a second term and we should consider that when we voted. Then when he won they didn't come to any cons in the USA for those next four years.

Sorry... you are never going to convince me that Bush was so horrible that somehow touching USA soil during his Presidency somehow contaminated you.

I have talked about who I voted for here because RSP is much more rational than most places, but I never did in my Poly days nor did I in my Sci-Fi friend circles because people would "punish" you for not conforming. Even though I am hardly an extremest for either side it didn't feel safe to discuss my views very often.

So "Looney" levels of hate and social pressure does go both ways.

I do agree that Facebook probably makes it worse, certainly "Live Journal" did, but I cannot be sure since I don't really use Facebook.

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Chad_Ellis wrote:

Brown claims that she's introducing the bill to protect women from men who might rape them and then help them get an abortion to destroy the evidence. Good for her.


I'm confused. Couldn't an aborted fetus be used as evidence of rape just as easily?
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happyjosiah wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:

Brown claims that she's introducing the bill to protect women from men who might rape them and then help them get an abortion to destroy the evidence. Good for her.


I'm confused. Couldn't an aborted fetus be used as evidence of rape just as easily?


I assume the argument would be, "We're worried that in cases where the victim knew her rapist the rapist will convince her to have an abortion and then if she presses charges later there won't be DNA evidence to show that he is the one who raped her. Therefore we must criminalize her decision to have an abortion."
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I disagree with abortion in almost all cases but this isn't the way to get there, nor does it make much sense, given that you're going to have a rapist who is either unknown to the woman, in which case he won't be pressuring her to destroy the evidence at all, or known to the woman, in which case they probably already know who did it, and any question in the case would be whether there was consent or not, not who had sex with her.

Also, this seems contrary to the position of wanting to see more reported rapes. Raped and got pregnant? Don't report it if you want an abortion...
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whac3 wrote:
Rulesjd wrote:
MaximumPain wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Yes, but don't pretend that all the idiots are Republicans. Plenty are but screaming "Crazy gun-nut!" and "Evil NRA!" whenever anyone even tries to have a rational discussion about what the Second Amendment can, does or should mean in practice doesn't exactly help.


Those people are just as bad as the "they want to take every gun away" or "A revolver or knife is just as good as a 9mm with an 18 round clip (sorry magazine)" crowd.

I'm getting really tired of both sides these days. shake


Because you see forcing a woman to carry a rapists child to term exactly the same as limiting high capacity magazines? Much like j-walking is equivalent to arson as both are criminal acts.

Frankly, I want to keep my firearms BECAUSE there are elected officials like this one. Government doesn't belong in our bedrooms, our marriages, or our doctors offices.

I think the point was more that both sides have their screaming, er, talking points.


They do indeed. That doesn't mean the talking points are equivalent however.
 
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Rulesjd wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Rulesjd wrote:
MaximumPain wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Yes, but don't pretend that all the idiots are Republicans. Plenty are but screaming "Crazy gun-nut!" and "Evil NRA!" whenever anyone even tries to have a rational discussion about what the Second Amendment can, does or should mean in practice doesn't exactly help.


Those people are just as bad as the "they want to take every gun away" or "A revolver or knife is just as good as a 9mm with an 18 round clip (sorry magazine)" crowd.

I'm getting really tired of both sides these days. shake


Because you see forcing a woman to carry a rapists child to term exactly the same as limiting high capacity magazines? Much like j-walking is equivalent to arson as both are criminal acts.

Frankly, I want to keep my firearms BECAUSE there are elected officials like this one. Government doesn't belong in our bedrooms, our marriages, or our doctors offices.

I think the point was more that both sides have their screaming, er, talking points.


They do indeed. That doesn't mean the talking points are equivalent however.

In principle, no, if they ere really being talked about, maybe. There's not.

That is the real problem. In US politics people re talking at each other and not to each other. There is a de facto incentive not to talk to or work wit the "other side".
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