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Commands & Colors: Ancients» Forums » Rules

Subject: Leadership Command Cards rss

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Stephen O'Connor
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May a lone leader be ordered?

eg: A lone leader orders himself to move (and possibly attach) along with the relevant adjacent units?

May a lone leader be used as part of the 'wing'?

eg: One leader orders own hex and a chain of adjacent hexes - one of which is a lone leader?

 
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I have previously played this card such that lone leaders may be commanded like any other unit. They may not however be detached from a unit with this card. The cards that may detach leaders are strictly defined. However lone leaders may be commanded as usual with any card, including Leadership Command Cards.

At least that has been my interpretation of the rules.
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David Bohnenberger
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I believe the answers are yes and yes, provided the card used has the "leader" symbol on it.
 
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Jeff Kayati
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Dweeb wrote:
I believe the answers are yes and yes, provided the card used has the "leader" symbol on it.


Yeah, that's my thought without looking at any of the cards. If it has a helmet, you can order a leader.
 
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Kevin Duke
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No, Kyle is correct. the "Helmet" symbol cards are significant because they are the only ones that let you un-attach a leader.
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Stephen O'Connor
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Section 7. (Order Units and Leaders) states:

...a leader may not detach from a unit when a 'Leadership' Command card is played - so that is clear enough.

Section17. (Command Cards) states:

'Leadership cards allow you to order a (leader), any unit to which the leader is attached, plus a given number of units in adjacent linked hexes...'

It then goes on to say: Leadership Any Section etc:

' Issue an order to (units) under one leader's command' - leader's hex etc.

My understanding of this would now be that an attached or unattached leader may command the wing - the only forbidden action is to detach.
Also, the rules state that a Leader is not a unit(Section 2 Units, Leaders and Blocks) - as such a lone leader may not be used as a (non-commanding) part of the 'wing'.
* A lone leader would not be a (unit) allowed as part of a Double Time or Line Command.

* The problem arises that only Section Command Cards and Order Mounted Troops Command Cards permit independent Leader detach/movement.
The leadership cards have reps of leaders on them, but not the straightforward helmet symbol as per above cards. As leaders are not allowed to detach that would suggest that the leadership card does not permit independent movement and that the leader must begin attached and stay attached.

Any thoughts?














 
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My short answer to the OP:

1) The hex containing the lone leader could be the designated hex for ordering the other adjacent linked units.

2) No, you can't order other lone leaders with these cards.

A reading of the rules says you can. See Kyle's citation below. I've taken down the rest of my earlier reply.
 
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This is from the current version of the living rulebook. I believe it answers the question about whether lone leaders can be commanded as part of a wing.

Quote:
Leadership cards allow you to order a leader, any unit to which the leader is attached, plus a given number of units or leaders in adjacent linked hexes to move and/or battle.
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I agree, but the examples in the book don't reflect that and I wish they would. The illustrations in the third edition PDF just say:

blank = friendly Unit.

To reflect the rule you cite, I wish they would say:

blank = friendly unit or lone friendly leader.

...And, again, I'm sharing how I understand the rule. If ordering lone leaders is also allowed, I stand corrected!
 
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Honestly it's a tough call. Most of the rulebook is a bit more consistent in constantly referring to units and/or leaders. In this case they say units and/or leaders a single time, and then default to just referring to units. It is also unclear as to whether they are referring to leaders attached to units, or lone leaders. If it is referring to leaders that are attached, it seems redundant. If it is referring to lone leaders, it would have been helpful for that to be specified. If it is referring to both, some consistency with the rest of the rules concerning Leadership Command cards would have been helpful.

But all that aside, the way I play it is that leadership cards can command lone leaders as part of the wing. Or as the central commander. And those leaders can attach to units. But you cannot detach a leader with a leadership card.
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Kevin Duke
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That is the best/easiest way.

Fwiw, after the game first came out and, being so new, containing lots of questions, it turned out that elephant rampage and lone leaders were-- far and away-- the things that prompted the most questions. We addressed a lot of that in 3rd edition.
 
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Dave Briggs
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Namrok wrote:

But all that aside, the way I play it is that leadership cards can command lone leaders as part of the wing. Or as the central commander. And those leaders can attach to units. But you cannot detach a leader with a leadership card.

This has been brought up several times on this and ConSimWorld forums. The quote above is considered the correct rule interpretation. Anyhow, for what its worth, that's how I've been playing it.
 
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Dave, I respectfully disagree. I've taken a look through the threads on BGG and Consimworld and while I can find a lot discussion about Leadership cards, I can't find a quote from Richard that clarifies whether lone leaders apart from one in the designated hex can be ordered as part of the wing or chain with Leadership cards. This is the closest reference that addresses the OP's concern I can find so far, but Richard's reply into the thread doesn't address the issue of lone leaders outside of the designated hex. If there's thread where this was pinned down, I'd appreciate a link or direction to it.

However, Kyle's citation is good enough for me. It's meaning is pretty plain, but the diagrams don't support it very well. For a future edition, I hope they read, "blank = Friendly unit or lone friendly leader" to diagrams.
 
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Dave Briggs
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Brady,
I shouldn't have said it is the "official" decision. Sorry bout that. I was just saying that I thought most players seemed to interpret the rules that way. I found an exchange I had with Keven on the Comsimworld forum: http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX/.1dcfbb8c/8655 Of course this is just our take and certainly isn't official.
As far as Richard Borg is concerned, you are correct, he hasn't really addressed this problem... not that I know of.
I'll have to review the rules again and see if I can find other discussions on this. I know there have been several. It is, indeed, one of the one of the more vague rules.
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Dave Briggs
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I went through the Command Card rules and noted where it talks about Leaders and orders.

Page 22 18. Section Cards. "These cards indicate in which section of the battlefield you may order units or leaders and how many units or leaders you may order."

Troop Cards. Order Mounted Troops. "Issue orders to a number of mounted units and/or leaders..." This is the only card in this group that mentions ordering a leader.

Leadership Cards. "...order a leader, any unit to which the leader is attached, plus a given number of units or leaders..."
To me this includes: a leader; a unit that has a leader attached; units with or without an attached leader; a lone leader.

In all the above it is implied that when ordering a unit, any attached leader is also ordered, but of course must stay with the unit. Also where the rules say "or leader" I make the assumtion this includes lone leaders.
 
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Quote:
Leadership Cards. "...order a leader, any unit to which the leader is attached, plus a given number of units or leaders..."
To me this includes: a leader; a unit that has a leader attached; units with or without an attached leader; a lone leader.


Thanks, Dave. Kyle cited the same passage, too, so I'm on board with you. Lone leaders can be included in the chain/wing of adjacent linked hexes. I wish now the diagrams and the text on the cards would reinforce it, too. I think the distinction is an easy one to overlook or forget.
 
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Stephen O'Connor
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Gentlemen


Many thanks for all replies.

The 3rd Edition rules clarify the ordering of leaders (I have been playing off a 2nd edition hard copy). I would agree with the reading that a lone leader may activate the wing, and a lone leader may also be a linking part of the wing.
I assume it remains that a leader is not a unit, and therefore a lone leader may not be included in a Double Time or Line Command.


Steve O'Connor

 
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