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Subject: Republican plan to steal the next few elections rss

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William Boykin
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bjlillo wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Have any US elections been turned due to voter fraud?


If it weren't for illegal voting, we wouldn't have Senator Al Franken. If it weren't for Senator Al Franken, we wouldn't have Obamacare. Illegal voting costs me personally several thousand dollars per year in increased medical insurance costs and taxes.



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During the controversy a conservative group called Minnesota Majority began to look into claims of voter fraud. Comparing criminal records with voting rolls, the group identified 1,099 felons -- all ineligible to vote -- who had voted in the Franken-Coleman race.

Minnesota Majority took the information to prosecutors across the state, many of whom showed no interest in pursuing it. But Minnesota law requires authorities to investigate such leads. And so far, Fund and von Spakovsky report, 177 people have been convicted -- not just accused, but convicted -- of voting fraudulently in the Senate race. Another 66 are awaiting trial. "The numbers aren't greater," the authors say, "because the standard for convicting someone of voter fraud in Minnesota is that they must have been both ineligible, and 'knowingly' voted unlawfully." The accused can get off by claiming not to have known they did anything wrong.

Still, that's a total of 243 people either convicted of voter fraud or awaiting trial in an election that was decided by 312 votes. With 1,099 examples identified by Minnesota Majority, and with evidence suggesting that felons, when they do vote, strongly favor Democrats, it doesn't require a leap to suggest there might one day be proof that Al Franken was elected on the strength of voter fraud.


"York: When 1,099 felons vote in race won by 312 ballots", by Byron York, Washington Examiner, 8.6.2012.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/york-when-1099-felons-vote-in-...

Darilian
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William Boykin
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gittes wrote:
This is unprecedented and only adds to the evidence that the current Republican party is the most vile, ruthless, and undemocratic political force since the southern secessionists.


Sean, I love you like a brother, but man....

You are so totally waving the Bloody Shirt right now.


Darilian
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Well, I'm afraid it'll have to wait. Whatever it was, I'm sure it was better than my plan to get out of this by pretending to be mad. I mean, who would have noticed another madman round here?
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Darilian wrote:
gittes wrote:
This is unprecedented and only adds to the evidence that the current Republican party is the most vile, ruthless, and undemocratic political force since the southern secessionists.


Sean, I love you like a brother, but man....

You are so totally waving the Bloody Shirt right now.

Darilian


I'll always wave the bloody shirt.

But I need more on how I am wrong here. Provide evidence sir!
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William Boykin
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gittes wrote:
Darilian wrote:
gittes wrote:
This is unprecedented and only adds to the evidence that the current Republican party is the most vile, ruthless, and undemocratic political force since the southern secessionists.


Sean, I love you like a brother, but man....

You are so totally waving the Bloody Shirt right now.

Darilian


I'll always wave the bloody shirt.

But I need more on how I am wrong here. Provide evidence sir!



Politics is hardball. I wouldn't care two whits about a politician who lost and laughed (to requote George Patton). And to say that modern Republicans are worse than say, New Deal Democrats who put the screws onto the Republicans, stole all the credit for Hoover's reform packages which actually stopped the banking crisis, and when confronted with a Supreme Court which felt that their reform package violated the Constitution, attempted to just repack the Court to suit their own political ends....

I know its popular to think that somehow our politics are 'worse' today than they've ever been. But this is to disregard the historical truth that deal making in Democracy has ALWAYS been a nasty, ugly business. From Alcibiades arguing with Nicias over Sicily, democratic policymaking has always been nasty and played for keeps.

Darilian
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Rich Shipley
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gittes wrote:
All we can hope for is that the GOP's dreams are dashed upon the rocks before they, like Jefferson Davis, choose the "Fort Sumter option."


I think they are already realizing what a bad idea this is. The Virginia Governor said today he wasn't interested.
 
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Rich Shipley
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Darilian wrote:
I know its popular to think that somehow our politics are 'worse' today than they've ever been. But this is to disregard the historical truth that deal making in Democracy has ALWAYS been a nasty, ugly business. From Alcibiades arguing with Nicias over Sicily, democratic policymaking has always been nasty and played for keeps.


I actually think our politics in general is getting better. Maybe that means the bad stuff sticks out more now.
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Darilian wrote:
bjlillo wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Have any US elections been turned due to voter fraud?


If it weren't for illegal voting, we wouldn't have Senator Al Franken. If it weren't for Senator Al Franken, we wouldn't have Obamacare. Illegal voting costs me personally several thousand dollars per year in increased medical insurance costs and taxes.



During the controversy a conservative group called Minnesota Majority began to look into claims of voter fraud. Comparing criminal records with voting rolls, the group identified 1,099 felons -- all ineligible to vote -- who had voted in the Franken-Coleman race.


Too bad voter ID wouldn't fix that.

Of course there is the example of Jeb Bush throwing eligible voters off the rolls under the guise of purging felons. So if you get to count Franken, I'm counting George Bush.
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Sean Chick (Formerly Paul O'Sullivan)
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Well, I'm afraid it'll have to wait. Whatever it was, I'm sure it was better than my plan to get out of this by pretending to be mad. I mean, who would have noticed another madman round here?
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Darilian wrote:
gittes wrote:
Darilian wrote:
gittes wrote:
This is unprecedented and only adds to the evidence that the current Republican party is the most vile, ruthless, and undemocratic political force since the southern secessionists.


Sean, I love you like a brother, but man....

You are so totally waving the Bloody Shirt right now.

Darilian


I'll always wave the bloody shirt.

But I need more on how I am wrong here. Provide evidence sir!



Politics is hardball. I wouldn't care two whits about a politician who lost and laughed (to requote George Patton). And to say that modern Republicans are worse than say, New Deal Democrats who put the screws onto the Republicans, stole all the credit for Hoover's reform packages which actually stopped the banking crisis, and when confronted with a Supreme Court which felt that their reform package violated the Constitution, attempted to just repack the Court to suit their own political ends....

I know its popular to think that somehow our politics are 'worse' today than they've ever been. But this is to disregard the historical truth that deal making in Democracy has ALWAYS been a nasty, ugly business. From Alcibiades arguing with Nicias over Sicily, democratic policymaking has always been nasty and played for keeps.

Darilian


I would not say today is ugliest ever, even by a mile. I can easily point to the 1800 presidential election. Or 1824. Or 1828 and so on. I have no problem with hardball politics. I invite it because it works and I think the ends usually justify the means.

This is too far in a direction far more dangerous than Gilded Age partisanship. It is divisive and deeply un-American. It is the attempt to win elections by rigging the vote on a national scale. It is fueled by purity politics. I am reminded of the antebellum South, where Republicans did not even appear on the presidential ticket and whites were lynched just for being abolitionists and even discussing abolitionism was banned by law.
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William Boykin
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gittes wrote:
Darilian wrote:
gittes wrote:
Darilian wrote:
gittes wrote:
This is unprecedented and only adds to the evidence that the current Republican party is the most vile, ruthless, and undemocratic political force since the southern secessionists.


Sean, I love you like a brother, but man....

You are so totally waving the Bloody Shirt right now.

Darilian


I'll always wave the bloody shirt.

But I need more on how I am wrong here. Provide evidence sir!



Politics is hardball. I wouldn't care two whits about a politician who lost and laughed (to requote George Patton). And to say that modern Republicans are worse than say, New Deal Democrats who put the screws onto the Republicans, stole all the credit for Hoover's reform packages which actually stopped the banking crisis, and when confronted with a Supreme Court which felt that their reform package violated the Constitution, attempted to just repack the Court to suit their own political ends....

I know its popular to think that somehow our politics are 'worse' today than they've ever been. But this is to disregard the historical truth that deal making in Democracy has ALWAYS been a nasty, ugly business. From Alcibiades arguing with Nicias over Sicily, democratic policymaking has always been nasty and played for keeps.

Darilian


I would not say today is ugliest ever, even by a mile. I can easily point to the 1800 presidential election. Or 1824. Or 1828 and so on. I have no problem with hardball politics. I invite it because it works and I think the ends usually justify the means.

This is too far in a direction far more dangerous than Gilded Age partisanship. It is divisive and deeply un-American. It is the attempt to win elections by rigging the vote on a national scale. It is fueled by purity politics. I am reminded of the antebellum South, where Republicans did not even appear on the presidential ticket and whites were lynched just for being abolitionists and even discussing abolitionism was banned by law.


How is this any worse than Machine Politics? All political parties, by their very nature, don't want to compete if they don't have to. Competitive races mean that people have to spend money- which just raises up the other onus of politicians and parties being beholden to those with the biggest wallets.

Personally, I'm not a fan of gerrymandering, but I don't really see any solution other than what we have going on Texas right now- which is, the leading party gerrymanders a bunch until the Courts decide "Hey, that's a little extreme." Then there are a bunch of lawsuits, the minority party gets their day in court, the districts are made a bit more fair, the minority slowly becomes the majority party, and then the NEW majority party uses gerrymandering to consolidate THEIR hold on the state majority, and the cycle begins again.

So long as there is a constant cycle, some 'churn' in the system, we can at least avoid the worst excesses of majority party tyranny.

Sure, its not ideal- but its probably as fair as its ever going to be. If someone can come up with a better idea for districting and get it passed in the Texas Legislature, I'd be the first to go out and try and raise money for that bill.

But to say that this current round of trying to 'win it all' through redisctricting is 'vile, ruthless and undemocratic'- AND the fault of Republicans- is to lose sight of the overall picture.

After all, it was James Carville who argues that it was going to be the DEMOCRATS who had a '40 year Hegemony' in the Federal Government back in 2008- because he argued that they should do the exact same thing to the GOP after the 2010 census.

Its just politics. So long as no one party ever 'wins it all', life is fine.

(Which is one reason why I have a tendency to back the minority party against the majority party, no matter who I think is 'right'- I don't want EITHER party to actually 'win' and be able to set their agenda without the other parties interference. But then, I'm weird.)

Darilian
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William Boykin
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Politics is warfare by other means.

Darilian
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Darilian wrote:
Politics is warfare by other means.

War is the continuation of politics by other means.
- Karl Von Clausewitz
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Michael Taylor
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chaendlmaier wrote:
Darilian wrote:
I wouldn't care two whits about a politician who lost and laughed (to requote George Patton).

Yeah, because that deranged nutcase called George Patton is the person everyone ought to look up to. He might have had a point about war, but anyone who doesn't laugh at times about the cynical business called politics should probably seek a vocation where to be an arrogant egomaniac is an advantage and where their personal conflicts have no effect on the general public.


Sounds like you're still bitter.
 
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William Boykin
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jmilum wrote:
Darilian wrote:
Politics is warfare by other means.

War is the continuation of politics by other means.
- Karl Von Clausewitz


The first is a corollary posited by Emile Simpson, in his new book on the Afghan War, War from the Ground Up, where he turns Clausewitz's axiom on its head.

The reason that the Iraq War 'succeeded' in the post Petreaus surge era is not that the fighting between ethnic groups in Iraq ceased. Rather, it moved from ethnic cleansing to politics. The war for control of Iraq is ongoing, but the means that they're using have changed. Because they're not spilling blood anymore, however, we call it 'peace' and claim victory.

The same thing is true for the ongoing Afghan war, which is why we're failing there. And the same is true for American politics. We're still fighting each other, as we have ever since Washington warned against the perils of factionalism. It's just that the means that we do so is through the ballot box and the parliamentary system. Fortunately, our stylized means of political warfare has only once spilled over into outright physical bloodshed, but that shouldn't blind us to the reality that what we call politics is strife- managed strife.

Darilian
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William Boykin
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chaendlmaier wrote:
But I guess some people can't go without hero worship, even if the hero in question is a deranged lunatic.


I never let my personal feelings about a historical figure get in the way of a good quote.

And I don't care if a general is a lunatic or not- I care about whether or not he or she wins.

War's very object is victory, not prolonged indecision. In war there is no substitute for victory.
-Douglas McArthur, an ever bigger lunatic than Patton.

Darilian
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chaendlmaier wrote:
gvchief wrote:
Sounds like you're still bitter.

Patton's effect on World War Two has been severely overstated.


On that, I will agree. But your vitriol against Patton seems overstated as well.

And the US Army operated very much like a democracy's army because it was and still is a democracy's army.
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bjlillo wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Have any US elections been turned due to voter fraud?


If it weren't for illegal voting, we wouldn't have Senator Al Franken. If it weren't for Senator Al Franken, we wouldn't have Obamacare. Illegal voting costs me personally several thousand dollars per year in increased medical insurance costs and taxes.


You keep playing that note, BJ, it will fit into a song someday.
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bjlillo wrote:
If it weren't for illegal voting, we wouldn't have Senator Al Franken. If it weren't for Senator Al Franken, we wouldn't have Obamacare. Illegal voting costs me personally several thousand dollars per year in increased medical insurance costs and taxes.


You're attributing the credit incorrectly. I personally gave $30,000 to the Minnesota donor collaborative in 2008. Well spent, that money was more than enough to turn out additional voters equal to the margin of victory. If anyone gets the credit for making you pay several thousand more dollars a year, it should be me.
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Sean Chick (Formerly Paul O'Sullivan)
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Well, I'm afraid it'll have to wait. Whatever it was, I'm sure it was better than my plan to get out of this by pretending to be mad. I mean, who would have noticed another madman round here?
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Darilian wrote:
But to say that this current round of trying to 'win it all' through redisctricting is 'vile, ruthless and undemocratic'- AND the fault of Republicans- is to lose sight of the overall picture.

After all, it was James Carville who argues that it was going to be the DEMOCRATS who had a '40 year Hegemony' in the Federal Government back in 2008- because he argued that they should do the exact same thing to the GOP after the 2010 census.

Its just politics. So long as no one party ever 'wins it all', life is fine.

(Which is one reason why I have a tendency to back the minority party against the majority party, no matter who I think is 'right'- I don't want EITHER party to actually 'win' and be able to set their agenda without the other parties interference. But then, I'm weird.)


This is not just your average gerrymandering which, with the aid of computers is much worse. i am worried about this kind of thinking as applied to national elections. The usual response to losing a slew of presidential elections to change your party and adjust to what is the new center so to speak. Both parties have done this before.

The other problem is that the Republicans will pretty much do anything to make sure the government does not function properly. I have not really seen that kind of partisanship since the Gilded Age.

I use to have your majority/minority perspective. That is until the GOP said no to their own proposals just because Obama put them forth. Then they said "we need more tax cutting, more deregulation, etc." I decided then that they were if not insane, then it must be denial, and barring that, some form of evil, at least individually. They are almost to man inflexible, a trait I find dangerous. But I don't mean to say the Democrats are not partisans. Rather, they merely follow the GOP down the rabbit hole and soon enough they'll cart out their own dirty tricks. Politics, for the foreseeable future, will only become worse with each passing year.
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gittes wrote:
I have not really seen that kind of partisanship since the Gilded Age.


You're old.
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DaviddesJ wrote:
bjlillo wrote:
If it weren't for illegal voting, we wouldn't have Senator Al Franken. If it weren't for Senator Al Franken, we wouldn't have Obamacare. Illegal voting costs me personally several thousand dollars per year in increased medical insurance costs and taxes.


You're attributing the credit incorrectly. I personally gave $30,000 to the Minnesota donor collaborative in 2008. Well spent, that money was more than enough to turn out additional voters equal to the margin of victory. If anyone gets the credit for making you pay several thousand more dollars a year, it should be me.


Thanks, dave!
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I uusually hate this false equivalence 'THEY DO IT TOO!' BS, but its worth noting...

Even if the Dems are totally on board with doing this sort of thing, they simply don't have to.

This new thing is all about the Republicans realizing they've painted themselves in a corner over the last 50 years, and all the demographics are going against them now... Desperation leads to an uptick of sleazeball tactics.

~~

My countertactic would be to call for proportional representation across the whole nation. Make 'em squirm a little.
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Problem: every year a smaller percentage of people agree with our increasingly obviously wrong policies.

Solution: try to change rules so we can still be elected regardless of how small a minority agree with us.

Yeah, they're kind of bad people.
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Well spent...


You are talking about a political party, right?
 
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bobby_5150 wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
Well spent...


You are talking about a political party, right?


No.
 
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Well, I'm afraid it'll have to wait. Whatever it was, I'm sure it was better than my plan to get out of this by pretending to be mad. I mean, who would have noticed another madman round here?
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Dolphinandrew wrote:
gittes wrote:
I have not really seen that kind of partisanship since the Gilded Age.


You're old.


How else do I explain my Mexican War cavalry sabre and Jefferson Davis funeral ribbon.
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