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Uruk: Wiege der Zivilisation» Forums » Rules

Subject: Removing and rebuilding an invention that is already built? rss

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Kevin B. Smith
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If I have my level 1 invention still in my display, can I choose to make an invention, declare that I am substituting over my level 1 invention, take it into my hand, and then build it back where it was?

The official (English) rules don't say anything that would prohibit that, and this note even implies that it is legal:
Quote:
Note: A substituted invention is immediately taken back to hand and can be used to build a colour couple or can be reinvented according to the rules.

The reason I would want to do this, of course, is to simply refill it with 3 new cubes from the pool, without paying anything other than an action.

EDIT: The same logic and question apply to other inventions, such as the Strasse.
EDIT: Actually, the Strasse would be the only other invention in question, since it is the only level 2+ invention that has a "when built" effect.
 
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Coen Velden
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I'm not able to read my german rulebook atm,
but that's the way we play it.
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David G.
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I'd be interested in what the German rules state, but my understanding is you're replacing a building.
 
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Ron K
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Yes, but building it again costs an action.
 
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David G.
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He's not asking if he gets to take it into his hand, he's asking if in one action he can take a level 1 card in his hand, and then build that same card immediately. The 3 cubes would therefore be restocked.
RaDiKal wrote:
Yes, but building it again costs an action.
 
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Kevin B. Smith
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davebo wrote:
RaDiKal wrote:
Yes, but building it again costs an action.

He's not asking if he gets to take it into his hand, he's asking if in one action he can take a level 1 card in his hand, and then build that same card immediately. The 3 cubes would therefore be restocked.

Right. The rules do NOT say that you declare what you are building first, and then take the old invention into your hand. It could, but it doesn't. So the sequence if you strictly follow the rules is:

1. Declare that you are performing a build action
2. Specify the slot into which you are building or overbuilding
3. If overbuilding, take that invention into your hand
4. Pay for and build an invention from your hand (EDIT: which could be the building you just overbuilt)

At least, that's how I'm reading the English rules.
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David G.
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Doesn't seem within the spirit of the theme, does it? I've invented "streets" again?

The rules already state you can't have the same invention twice (two streets at the same time) which makes sense.

Having said that, though, the rules do stipulate that once a card goes back into your hand that it's available to be created at a later turn, so I guess that ruins my "theme" concept.


peakhope wrote:

1. Declare that you are performing a build action
2. Specify the slot into which you are building or overbuilding
3. If overbuilding, take that invention into your hand
4. Pay for and build an invention from your hand (EDIT: which could be the building you just overbuilt)
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Ron K
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davebo wrote:
He's not asking if he gets to take it into his hand, he's asking if in one action he can take a level 1 card in his hand, and then build that same card immediately. The 3 cubes would therefore be restocked.
RaDiKal wrote:
Yes, but building it again costs an action.


OK, for the nuance where the invention to be built is the one in the slot you want to invent on, you take one invention action, place (re-place) the invention card in the slot, pay any additional cards to satisfy the level of invention and then execute the rules for the newly invented (reinvented) card. Where the invention to be re-invented is a level 1 card, you can simply reload the three cubes onto the card.

If I were re-inventing the road, I'd need to pay an additional road card or any two cards of matching colors (it's a level 2 invention). I would then clear and reload the card with cubes matching the face up card display per the rules for when the road card is invented.


You only re-invent under two scenarios (and the second is weak):
1. To reload an invention that doesn't have an enduring effect; reloading costs an action and cards if greater than level 1
2. To retrieve or relocate an invention (sometimes conditions and timing make it easier to move the invention through two actions than building settlements on it.


Update/correction: found a reference to this in the 5 turn walk-through demo on DDD's website. To re-invent a currently invented resource (one that runs-out of it's special power), you need to invent something into the slot it is currently in and then in a different action, invent it again. You can not re-invent a currently invented card in a single action to 'reload it'.

Ron
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Kevin B. Smith
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RaDiKal wrote:
If I were re-inventing the road, I'd need to pay an additional road card or any two cards of matching colors (it's a level 2 invention). I would then clear and reload the card with cubes matching the face up card display per the rules for when the road card is invented.

Right, or if you had the discount, you could do that for free as well.
 
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marc magner
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we've played both ways and i don't think it has a huge effect on game play (as long as everyone is playing by the same rules) but we have sort of settled on - that you can't replay for the same action... but that is more for subscribing to 'our' logic of the game then for a solid rule...

so i too will be interested what the German rules say.
 
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Steve Duff
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I think this is definitely breaking the rules. The rules have this order:

1. Play new invention.
2. Pick up old one if overbuilding.
3. Pay for new invention.

Thus you have the old card in hand and can use it for paying, but you cannot rebuild it immediately. You can build it on a future turn, just not this same turn you picked it up.

Quote:
Example: Regula substitutes her level 1 invention “Lehmhaus (mud hut)” by the pink level 3 invention “Flaschenzug (block and tackle)”.

She plays the invention “Flaschenzug (block and tackle)” and takes the level 1 invention “Lehmhaus (mud hut)” back on her hand.

[there's our 1, followed by 2]

She needs 2 other invention cards “Flaschenzug (block and tackle)” to do this. Since she doesn‘t have them, she creates one colour couple out of two yellow cards (“Axt (axe)” and “Leier (lyre)”) and another one out of the red cards (“Stadtmauer (city wall)” and the substituted red “Lehmhaus (mud hut)”). Then she puts these four cards on the discard pile.
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Kevin B. Smith
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Hmm. I agree that the example implies that sequence. But I take examples as evidence, not as authoritative. Meanwhile, the "Note" I quoted above implies that the taken-back invention can be re-built [immediately]. It doesn't say immediately, but it also doesn't say "later". The rules do not explicitly specify the "Play, Pick up, Pay" sequence you describe.

I just read google's translation of the German rules, and it doesn't seem to help much, although in the "Note" it doesn't seem to say "can be reinvented according to the rules" as the English rules do. It just seems to say that once it's in your hand, you can do whatever you would normally do with it. Which would be to rebuild it, or to discard it to get cubes.

The English rules also say "New invented inventions can substitute old inventions or be put next to them." That implies that the new and old inventions cannot be the same card. The German rules appear to have very similar wording.

So with 3 pieces of evidence (and perhaps common sense) implying that you *can't* rebuild something on top of itself in the same action, and only 1 piece of evidence implying that you can, I'm inclined to say you can't.

I wish the rules didn't allow you to use the old over-built invention to pay for the new invention. It makes the rules harder to explain than they should be, and raises the ambiguity in this thread. If it clearly said that you have to build the new invention first, and THEN take the old one back to your hand, it would all be simpler.
 
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Steve Duff
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peakhope wrote:
Meanwhile, the "Note" I quoted above implies that the taken-back invention can be re-built [immediately]. It doesn't say immediately, but it also doesn't say "later".


The "immediately" is in the "taken back to hand" and pay for the invention part of the sentence, not the rebuilding part. I think that's a very important distinction. It doesn't need to say "later" in the building half, because by definition, it has to be a later action, because this action has already been used.

Another corroborating piece is the rules explicitly state that to build an invention, you take one from your hand and put it in your display, and discard the required duplicates (and pay other cards if short).

By allowing this, you would eliminate much of what the game is about, namely getting cards in your hand you want to build, and having space to build them. Base level cards become infinite cube generators, instead of a bit of a challenge to reload them with cubes.

I'd be shocked if they ruled you could build a card you weren't holding.
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David G.
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UnknownParkerBrother wrote:

By allowing this, you would eliminate much of what the game is about, namely getting cards in your hand you want to build, and having space to build them. Base level cards become infinite cube generators, instead of a bit of a challenge to reload them with cubes.



Right. Why would I ever draw and then build an "infinite blue cube" card if I'd started with a "3 blue cubes" card? It would be an action to draw the "infinite blue", and at least an action to draw the second one it would take to build it since it's level two, and then an action to build it. For merely one action I could restock my "3 blue cubes" card if the proposed rules are correct.

If they really wanted this feature, they would have just said "for an action, restock the card", and not make you go through an odd building sequence.
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Ron K
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I've tracked down a more definitive reference (and one which shows I'm mistaken in my earlier interpretation of the rules). On the DDD website is a link to a "Demo (first 5 turns)" PDF:

http://www.ddd-verlag.de/pdfs/Uruk_Demo-Gameplay-First-5-Tur...

On page S.3 of that demo, during the 1st action of the 4th turn, the "Take Resource/s" action is taken (which results in taking the last resource from a Level 1 invention card). The following note appears:

Note: the level 1-invention is used up and
futile. With an action „make an invention“
the player can replace it with any other
invention. The level 1-invention may then
be invented again or used within a coloured
couple.


So, I've edited my response above to align to this and apologize for adding to the confusion.

-Ron
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