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Subject: Tournament Sportsmanship and Etiquette rss

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Steven
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If your opponent forgets to do something that benefits him, such as taking a credit from PAD, do you say anything? Now what if he wants to backtrack to get some credits he forgot?

I had this situation come up at a recent casual tournament (no money or prizes involved). It was my second event, and maybe fifth or sixth live game. I've been playing frequently on OCTGN before that.

Now what I'm used to, on OCTGN, is that everything is done automatically, such as Virus trashes, PADs, and credits for Bad Publicity.

I was playing against one person, who forgot a credit from Compromised Employee, and backtracked to add it. In my opinion, this was fine. It was just one turn before.

However, he did say he wanted to use that credit to force me to pay more for my trace last turn, or else he would have broken it. This I thought was not cool.

In the reverse matchup, with me as runner, midway through the game, I realized I had not been using any bad publicity credits. Now, would you be ok if I backtracked for one run, said I wanted to use the bad publicity credits, and added back the old credits I used?

This got me pretty curious. What kind of situations have you been in when it comes to competitive play?


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Steven Tu
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Generally, I give people their pad money no questions asked. Generally, backtracking is only valid for something obvious... Like Bad publicity not spent. But going back more than 1 turn is just dodgy.

In a tournament setting - all bets are off. If there's nothing at stake, there's still the pain in the arse of eventually having to remember everything that happened in the last 5 turns. I may forget things, they may forget things. It's nothing but your own fault. Develop methods to track those things. It'll do nothing but make you a better player in the long term.
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Patrick Jamet
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Taking a credit retroactively, yes.
Using it retroactively, no.

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Chris
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I agree that backing up to get the Pad credit makes sense, it was never optional to take, and all you're doing is updating the bits to count it.

For his trace no, because that's optional.
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Steven Tu
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Pyjam wrote:
Taking a credit retroactively, yes.
Using it retroactively, no.



Yeah and that. I may just say oops I have more credits, so I would have played THAT card - and I'll give up one of my creds now cos I took a cred after that card, so I'll have this on the table while I made that run...

HELL NO.
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Dennis de Vries
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The game is played between you and your opponent. It's best to have rules: like 'forgetting something', means 'I'm allowed that what I forgot' or 'forgotten, so bad luck'. You can agree on that just before the game starts.

I encounter this a lot, since I just started playing A:NR. I don't mind getting that credit from last turn, but doing something in that turn because you would have had that credit then is 'bad luck' in my book. Your opponent should be happy with getting that credit anyway. Then I would rather stop playing or start the game all over.

Just talk about it before the game, because forgetting something is human.
 
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Murray C
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In other card games, this is fairly easy to rule.

Things such as PAD and compromised employee are mandatory. You *must* gain these credits even if you don't want to. In order to preserve the game state, any missed credits will be added to the credit pool.

However, how you use these credits are based on player decisions. If you made a poor decision because you forgot you had credits, too bad. That's just more incentive to remember next time.

If the missing credit is easy to track and add back to the credit pool, then it should go in. However, if the players have lost track of how many credits are missing then there may be a broken game state. Depending on how broken it is, it can result in a double game loss. After all, keeping track of the game state is the responsibility of both players.

Personally, I try to return the game state as best as I can to what it should be, provided that both players can come to an agreement as to what that is. Most of the time, people just want to play instead of getting a victory via game loss penalty.
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Bart Rachemoss
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I agree with what the others are saying. One problem with trying to go back and change their actions after getting the forgotten credit is that *your* actions might have changed as well if they had had that extra credit so giving them a do-over without giving you a do-over is very unfair. The extra credit is objectively clear but what they would have done with it is not. People should not be richly rewarded for making mistakes.

It sounds like they are asking for an inch and taking a mile. They should be grateful for getting the credit and leave it at that.
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Conny Karlsson
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Anything that's mandatory (like taking credits from PAD or the like) i point out if they seem to forget. Taking back their most recent action, like installing an ice, then having a change of heart, i'm fine with that. Backtracking several steps to do you turn in a different way is going too far though, especially if they've got new information (like seeing their draw, looking at my reaction to things that happen).

If it's not in a tournament play however, i'm usually very forgiving of mistakes, and as long as nothing has been "rolled", you can take back whatever. Even "obvious" plays like not using your credits from a cyberfeeder or spinal modem, i usually point that out to be fair. It's actually in my interest to do so since playing against a sub-optimal opponent (becuase he forgot, not because he's bad) means i don't get to try my own skills in a fair way.
 
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Austin Norris

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For me if it happened during your current turn you can go back. Other than that it gets a little muddled. Even when I forget pad campaign I just go from the current turn on. The only exception to me are Noise's viruses if we catch it on the corps turn we can still do it but at that point you just have to trust the corp to discard the correct card.
 
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Drew Dallas
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In a casual setting I don't mind some backtracking, but in a tournament heck no. If you forget something that is your own fault, play better.
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Andrew Bartosh

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Same as I handle any game, more or less.

Mandatory effects we do our best to repair (Pad Credits, etc), anything else is too bad, so sad.
 
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Tuism wrote:
Generally, I give people their pad money no questions asked. Generally, backtracking is only valid for something obvious... Like Bad publicity not spent. But going back more than 1 turn is just dodgy.

In a tournament setting - all bets are off. If there's nothing at stake, there's still the pain in the arse of eventually having to remember everything that happened in the last 5 turns. I may forget things, they may forget things. It's nothing but your own fault. Develop methods to track those things. It'll do nothing but make you a better player in the long term.


If your opponents aren't dicks, you can ask them if it's OK for you to put a credit on PAD Campaign, like a recurring credit type of deal and flipping to show use. And, you know how recurring credits return at the start of your turn and you unflip them? If you see that counter on PAD during your start-of-the-turn check (you DO do the start-of-the-turn check, yes?), you'll see the PAD credit and remember to fetch one from the bank.
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MD Chis
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I hate "sportsmanship" discussions in this regard. The fundamental flaw of forgiving your opponent's mistakes is that they may not do the same. For that reason alone, it isn't good policy to allow them to take things back. In a true competitive setting where the outcome matters and the players are of identical skill and luck plays no factor, an argument can be made that the forgiving player will lose more than the unforgiving player. It is not just a challenge of skill, but of everything it takes to play the game. Having a good memory, and not forgetting things, is part of playing the game well.

If you're playing gridiron football and your opponent doesn't line up with your outside receiver, you quick snap and throw it to him. You don't wait for the corner to come over and cover the receiver. I don't understand why people don't see things in this game the same way. Remembering things IS a part of playing the game. You put yourself at a disadvantage because you lacked the required talent and skill to take advantage of your established position. You put yourself at a disadvantage because you forgot that PAD credit. You put yourself at a disadvantage because you forget your Jinteki identity. You put yourself at a disadvantage because you weren't keeping track of your opponent's mandatory draw.

This is an ideological argument, and is part of the reason I hate it. There is no correct answer, though there may be a concensus. Concensus can shift. The fact that the unforgiving player will win more than the forgiving player if all other factors are equal will never change.

Ironically I tend to forgive more often than not. There's just no reason to crucify someone who doesn't, nor reason to enforce mandatory effects as a judge. You put the forgetful player at an advantage to the unforgetful player.
 
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Ian Kelly
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monawhat wrote:
If your opponent forgets to do something that benefits him, such as taking a credit from PAD, do you say anything?


Absolutely you point it out. The credit is mandatory, so if he forgets to take it, then he's cheating unknowingly. If you notice and don't point it out, then you're also cheating, and you're doing it knowingly.

Whether you allow a missed credit to be claimed later is more subjective. If it's noticed right away then it's probably fine, but at a certain point it becomes impractical because it might have changed too much.
 
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Frank Brooks
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Now I was wondering whether you would be ok with this idea:

As corp, for my first click I consider installing ice over a server, even pay for it. Then change my mind pick up the card take my money back and do unrelated actions. Now the trick is, the card I put down wasn't even ice, creating a "illegal game state" for a second as you ponder it, but don't really do it.

On the other hand you could not go so far as actually "installing" the "ice" but instead just consider it by holding a card in your hand about where the ice would go and say something like "I'm going to install ice here...naw nevermind, I'm going to do..." or maybe "Should I install this here? Nah, I'm going to..." never actually creating the illegal game state just consider doing it aloud but not following through.

I've done this kind of thing (not getting to the point of doing another action or finishing my turn like this, but just considering it verbally) when I had a hand full of agendas and no ice so I faked being able to install ice to protect my hand, then decide not to (in hopes it would convince my opponent that I had nothing to hide there and just taking credits would be a safer move). Would you consider this "illegal behavior" and unsportsman like if the corp never actually put the card down? Is this just a type of bluffing? It is unlikely they would find out that you didn't have ice unless you lose in the next couple of turns and they look at your hand.
 
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B C Z
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BoShek wrote:
Now I was wondering whether you would be ok with this idea:

As corp, for my first click I consider installing ice over a server, even pay for it. Then change my mind pick up the card take my money back and do unrelated actions. Now the trick is, the card I put down wasn't even ice, creating a "illegal game state" for a second as you ponder it, but don't really do it.

On the other hand you could not go so far as actually "installing" the "ice" but instead just consider it by holding a card in your hand about where the ice would go and say something like "I'm going to install ice here...naw nevermind, I'm going to do..." or maybe "Should I install this here? Nah, I'm going to..." never actually creating the illegal game state just consider doing it aloud but not following through.

I've done this kind of thing (not getting to the point of doing another action or finishing my turn like this, but just considering it verbally) when I had a hand full of agendas and no ice so I faked being able to install ice to protect my hand, then decide not to (in hopes it would convince my opponent that I had nothing to hide there and just taking credits would be a safer move). Would you consider this "illegal behavior" and unsportsman like if the corp never actually put the card down? Is this just a type of bluffing? It is unlikely they would find out that you didn't have ice unless you lose in the next couple of turns and they look at your hand.


The moment the card touches the table and you take your hand away from position it and/or pay the install cost, you've cheated.

Up to that moment, you're bluffing but you are also delaying the game, which is unsportsmanlike conduct.

If you hemmed and hawed for too long over whether or not to 'install an ICE' and I called a TO on you who then looked at your hand and saw none, you'd probably be called on delay of game.

Overall, it seems kind of dodgy to me, and as a TO I'd be unhappy with someone delaying the game for such shenanigans.



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Peristarkawan wrote:
If you notice and don't point it out, then you're also cheating, and you're doing it knowingly.


This. AFAIK, Magic tournaments have a concept of "Failure to Maintain Game State" as a penalty (http://www.wizards.com/contentresources/wizards/wpn/main/doc...) for the same reasons.
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Jordan Hall
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byronczimmer wrote:
The moment the card touches the table and you take your hand away from position it and/or pay the install cost, you've cheated.

Up to that moment, you're bluffing but you are also delaying the game, which is unsportsmanlike conduct.

If you hemmed and hawed for too long over whether or not to 'install an ICE' and I called a TO on you who then looked at your hand and saw none, you'd probably be called on delay of game.

Overall, it seems kind of dodgy to me, and as a TO I'd be unhappy with someone delaying the game for such shenanigans.


These are areas that start to get really grey, especially since Netrunner is all about bluffing. Is it only delaying the game because you don't actually have ICE?

What if, at the beginning of your turn after the Runner exposed a lone Hunter protecting your winning Agenda, you 'accidentally' drop your Scorched Earth card face up on the table to discourage a run. Is this cheating? If so, would just saying "I have Scorched Earth in my hand, FYI" be okay?

On that note, once I accidentally said "I'll install Ice Wall here." instead of just saying 'an ice', completely ruining the surprise value. But it occurred to me that someone could easily install an Ice Wall and and blurt out 'Archer' or 'Rototurret' like it was an accident to bluff the Runner. Would this be out of line?

Just curious about peoples' thoughts on the matter.
 
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Gregory Pettigrew
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Rithrin wrote:
What if, at the beginning of your turn after the Runner exposed a lone Hunter protecting your winning Agenda, you 'accidentally' drop your Scorched Earth card face up on the table to discourage a run. Is this cheating? If so, would just saying "I have Scorched Earth in my hand, FYI" be okay?


If I thought you dropped that Scorched Earth on purpose, you would be issued a warning in a heartbeat. But you can tell colorful stories about your hand if you like.
 
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Matthew Trent
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Sportsmanship and Etiquette all follow Whedon's First Law: Don't be a dick.

Attempts to be more precise will just result in dickish behavior.
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Andrew Bartosh

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BoShek wrote:
Now I was wondering whether you would be ok with this idea:

As corp, for my first click I consider installing ice over a server, even pay for it. Then change my mind pick up the card take my money back and do unrelated actions. Now the trick is, the card I put down wasn't even ice, creating a "illegal game state" for a second as you ponder it, but don't really do it..


Speaking as someone who has TOed at this point, I'd give you a firm kick in the head for this and issue a very strong warning to you.

There is a very distinct line between "Should I install this here? Hmmm *counts* 1, 2, 3, 4, 5... mmmm. Nah." and "I'll install this here for 5... No. Nevermind." and that is the line that should not be crossed.

The latter you've played the card, the former you haven't.
 
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Ian Kelly
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cetiken wrote:
Sportsmanship and Etiquette all follow Whedon's First Law: Don't be a dick.


That would be Wheaton's Law, not Whedon's Law.
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Big Head Zach
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Peristarkawan wrote:
That would be Wheaton's Law, not Whedon's Law.


Whedon's Law: All characters are expendable.

Oh wait, that's also Martin's Law... devil
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Sorry to say that "don't be a dick" was around long before Wheaton made it the latest "meme".
I'd wager it was around long before anyone other than Wheaton's parents knew who Wheaton was.
 
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