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Subject: Uxmal 5 overpowered?? rss

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/|\ Roland /|\
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Having just finished a game, myself and all of the other players decided that this space is the most over powered on the board. It effectively allows you to bypass any queues on the other gears, and take resources with impunity. The fact that it's only 5 clicks to take the 9 corn spot on spot both without having to jockey for space and only paying 1 corn to do so seemed ludicrous. Plus, one player (who won) used it to acquire skulls over and over and ended up with 5 skulls placed by end of game for a massive lead win. Yeah, myself and others could have taken similar measures by thought it was "too cheap" of a path to victory and tried other victory paths.

Has anyone else found this space overpowered? To me it should be "pay one corn : advance one tech track without paying the cube resources". In fact, that's how we might house rule it from now on.

Note - I started this thread after moving it from the other Uxmal rules question thread so I wasn't hijacking topic
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Karl Bunyan
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ath3ist wrote:
Having just finished a game, myself and all of the other players decided that this space is the most over powered on the board. It effectively allows you to bypass any queues on the other gears, and take resources with impunity. The fact that it's only 5 clicks to take the 9 corn spot on spot both without having to jockey for space and only paying 1 corn to do so seemed ludicrous. Plus, one player (who won) used it to acquire skulls over and over and ended up with 5 skulls placed by end of game for a massive lead win. Yeah, myself and others could have taken similar measures by thought it was "too cheap" of a path to victory and tried other victory paths.

Has anyone else found this space overpowered? To me it should be "pay one corn : advance one tech track without paying the cube resources". In fact, that's how we might house rule it from now on.

Note - I started this thread after moving it from the other Uxmal rules question thread so I wasn't hijacking topic

I think I'm going to have to play this game about 100 more times to have any idea about what's more powerful, dominant/unbeatable strategies, or whatevers.

Uxmal 5 is extremely powerful, but you're only going to get to do it at most 5 times in a game, or 10 if you put two workers on it and just use one to hop on and off other wheels - probably just feeding them and not much else. Maybe you can get a few more by grabbing an extra worker as well.

I'd be surprised if you could win like that, though, and if someone tried it I'd like to be further round the turn order than them with a big handful of corn to be able to get there 1 or 2 turns quicker. I do, however, think it's one of the best spaces to come off of on the last turn since I can use it to make up for whatever miscalculation I've made somewhere else.

If I've noticed a problem it's because this and the building with the same icon can induce enormous AP - mainly from me. The "best move" decision tree just explodes.
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Kuba W
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I wouldn't say it's overpowered. Anything you can do from this space, you can do at no additional cost from the original wheel. So why is paying one corn to get 9 corn (Uxmal 5) better than just taking the 9 corn (Palenque 5)?
It is useful when you want to do the same action twice in the same turn, particularly building two monuments comes to mind, but I cannot imagine a strategy that is based mainly on using this spot (maybe combined with Tikal 5 and aiming for the top of temples, but even then it's just a help, not something that lets you win easily).
One player got skulls too easily? Try developing the fourth tech track early and keep getting the easy skulls with Tikal 1 & 3 - it's even more efficient.
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Jason Rupp
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It's fine.

You do realize that if he uses it to get a skull it's the SAME EXACT THING as putting his guy on the skull cog to get the skull. Actually, I take that back, it's worse than just putting his guy on the skull cog since he has to pay 1 corn. The only good thing about using it to get a skull is that you could pick up 2 skulls on the same turn.

As for the corn spot. You have to pay 1 corn so you gain 1 corn compared to just putting your guy on the corn gear.

You should play more than a single game before you start talking about how things are overpowered.

//edit: Actually the skull gear is on 4 so it's quicker too! The corn 9 spot is the same distance so you actually get 1 less corn.
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Danny Wu
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I find the space very reasonable and not overpowering. It's the same amount of spaces away as any of the other gears(excluding Chichen itza) to acquire the highest level of goods/resources/actions. Uxmal 5 requires the same amount of time to acquire as palenque 5. It's an alternative source to get the same action at the expense of an extra corn. I have played a total of 8 games and have seen this used and ignored.
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Carsten Jorgensen
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I only played one time, but can see it's a nice spot. Though using it to get skulls isn't that a bit inefficient, as the skull space is #4 on the grey gear? At least if you know, that you are going to use it for that - the nice part is in the flexibility of the space.

In the game I played there was very little focus on the skulls. I focused on harvesting corn-tiles and got the monument matching them - which gave me 36 points. I think many of the paths to victory can give lots of point if allowed to go unchallenged.
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Jimbo Sutherland
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Randor20 wrote:
... many of the paths to victory can give lots of point if allowed to go unchallenged.

Completely agree - any unchallenged strategy (e.g skulls, temples. monuments, etc.) will hand the victory on a plate to an opponent.

You must watch what your opponents are up to. Any complaints that this is a "multi-player solitaire" game are well wide of the mark.

You can play it like that, but if you do, you will not win (unless everyone else is playing the same way!).

Great game.
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David Larkin
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It's value depends very much on what others do. If no one else uses it you will have to sit and wait several turns to get the action. If there are a couple of other workers on it you can get the action quite quickly if you have the corn, but then the same applies to the other cogs.
Generally you want to have some corn and jump on the cogs where others have already placed to get the more efficient actions more quickly.
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Kris Wiggins
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I agree with the general sentiment here. I've only played a few times myself, and I'm hardly an expert (I've never even won!) but there are other things to keep track of- feeding your people for instance. If you JUST focused on enough corn to feed your people, maybe getting an extra worker or two, and finally on Uxmal 5... Taking into additional consideration that you can only place or take workers on any given turn (which frustrates the heck out of me! haha), I'm just not sure others wouldn't be able to best you by focusing on a balanced approach with other resources, buildings, etc by placing their workers broadly. But what do I know, I've never even won the stupid game... haha (I still really like it though!) If you used Uxmal 5 to get resources, skulls, corn, buildings, etc., you'd be limiting yourself to one action per turn! So you'd have to place workers elsewhere just to keep up! I'm just thinking out loud in text at this point... Ultimately I don't think its too powerful. And if nothing else, Uxmal 5 is available to everyone equally anyway. So there you go.
 
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James Clarke
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Zark wrote:
Generally you want to have some corn and jump on the cogs where others have already placed to get the more efficient actions more quickly.
I really wish I'd thought of that. I'm always on the lookout for the available cheap (zero) worker placements, and thus cleverly avoid paying for higher placements.

The other thing I tend to do in this game, is finish in last place.
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Stephen McHale
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Highland Cow wrote:

The other thing I tend to do in this game, is finish in last place.


Too bad we can't place each other, then one of us would finally not be in last.

I take that back, we would probably tie for last.
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/|\ Roland /|\
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I agree with many of the comments so far. To further explain what happened, I now have time to provide a bit more context:

The player in question seemed to have a rhythm where he could obtain the 9 corn spot right at harvest time, sacrificed many temple points he had gained via the blue wheel to beg for corn to pay to jump ahead on brown wheel, and always had a worker climbing the blue wheel to plant the next skull. End of game he ended up in the 50 point range while myself and others were in high 20s to high 30s. I think he only visited the green and tech-up wheel a couple of times.

I do recognize that that spot is the same ticks as the other most powerful spots (sans blue), but the fact that it allows you to bypass all the other traffic on the other wheels, and the fact it is one of the only ways to take a single action twice in one turn (in fact I used it to jump up three temple spaces and claim the top on the second to last turn) just seems to make it the most "efficient" spot on the board, even having to may just one corn to use it. Just one hit of 9 corn allows for 9 uses essentially.

Again, I'm not claiming its OP so much as just posing the question to those that have played more than I. I plan to setup another 3 player game and solo it to see if I can chart out this rhythm.

Side note - Thanks for all the input so far. This was actually second game of this, I just happened to post after the second
 
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Nate Walker
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ath3ist wrote:
This was actually second game of this


ath3ist wrote:
In fact, that's how we might house rule it from now on.


If only game designers would playtest their games so we wouldn't have to make up our own rules. shake
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Jason Rupp
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ath3ist wrote:
I agree with many of the comments so far. To further explain what happened, I now have time to provide a bit more context:

The player in question seemed to have a rhythm where he could obtain the 9 corn spot right at harvest time, sacrificed many temple points he had gained via the blue wheel to beg for corn to pay to jump ahead on brown wheel, and always had a worker climbing the blue wheel to plant the next skull. End of game he ended up in the 50 point range while myself and others were in high 20s to high 30s. I think he only visited the green and tech-up wheel a couple of times.

I do recognize that that spot is the same ticks as the other most powerful spots (sans blue), but the fact that it allows you to bypass all the other traffic on the other wheels, and the fact it is one of the only ways to take a single action twice in one turn (in fact I used it to jump up three temple spaces and claim the top on the second to last turn) just seems to make it the most "efficient" spot on the board, even having to may just one corn to use it. Just one hit of 9 corn allows for 9 uses essentially.

Again, I'm not claiming its OP so much as just posing the question to those that have played more than I. I plan to setup another 3 player game and solo it to see if I can chart out this rhythm.

Side note - Thanks for all the input so far. This was actually second game of this, I just happened to post after the second :)


You act like traffic is a bad thing. With the right strategy, traffic is a great thing. It lets you pay corn instead of time. If you have the corn, you should be placing your workers on cogs that have lots of people on the early spots.

It sounds like you still need to learn more about the tactics and strategy in the game. Don't worry, I still have a long ways to go myself but that's the fun in the game!
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Karl Bunyan
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ath3ist wrote:
The player in question seemed to have a rhythm where he could obtain the 9 corn spot right at harvest time, sacrificed many temple points he had gained via the blue wheel to beg for corn to pay to jump ahead on brown wheel, and always had a worker climbing the blue wheel to plant the next skull. End of game he ended up in the 50 point range while myself and others were in high 20s to high 30s. I think he only visited the green and tech-up wheel a couple of times.

With those scores it sounds like he was able to execute his plan better than anyone else. There are ways of getting up to (and sometimes past) the 100 point mark and I'd be interested if an Uxmal 5 engine could do that.
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Chris Cieslik
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hatemachine wrote:
ath3ist wrote:
This was actually second game of this


ath3ist wrote:
In fact, that's how we might house rule it from now on.


If only game designers would playtest their games so we wouldn't have to make up our own rules. shake


I tried playtesting once. Overrated!

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Brian M
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Quote:
...sacrificed many temple points he had gained via the blue wheel to beg for corn to pay to jump ahead on brown wheel...

Just to check:

1) Begging only brings you up to 3 corn. It does not give you 3 corn. If you had 2 corn, you still only end with 3 corn.

2) You can only beg/lose temple points at the START of your turn. So no spending corn to place an extra worker then begging for more corn to place another worker.

Quote:
End of game he ended up in the 50 point range while myself and
others were in high 20s to high 30s.

Just from the record, from the games we've seen, 20s-30s are LOW scores. Our high scores have been over 100. (Not consistently, but we've seen them).

Uxmal 5, from what I've seen, is very useful...because it lets you get what you wanted when the actual space to get what you wanted is too blocked up for you to afford. It's not a strategy in itself, it's an alternate route when your desired strategy is inaccessible. It IS also cool when you can manage certain double actions with it.

But certainly not overpowered.

Quote:
Completely agree - any unchallenged strategy (e.g skulls, temples. monuments, etc.) will hand the victory on a plate to an opponent.

So if each player takes a different strategy and none of them challenge the others...who wins? devil
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Loren Cadelinia
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rrrrupp wrote:
You act like traffic is a bad thing. With the right strategy, traffic is a great thing. It lets you pay corn instead of time. If you have the corn, you should be placing your workers on cogs that have lots of people on the early spots.


This is a great strategy that I think is underused and undervalued. When more players are aware of this, it sort of creates a meta-game of bluffing and removing, in order to place on spots higher on the gear.
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David Larkin
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dyepbr wrote:
rrrrupp wrote:
You act like traffic is a bad thing. With the right strategy, traffic is a great thing. It lets you pay corn instead of time. If you have the corn, you should be placing your workers on cogs that have lots of people on the early spots.


This is a great strategy that I think is underused and undervalued. When more players are aware of this, it sort of creates a meta-game of bluffing and removing, in order to place on spots higher on the gear.


I will take the start player action when start player just to avoid going first so I can pay for higher placements, traffic is a good thing!
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