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Subject: New races and new powers, somewhat tested, and in need of your opinion! rss

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Nathaniel
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Hello all again!

Races and Powers updated may-06

After a few suggestions, I have a list of new races and powers that I'd like to submit to you. Many of these races/powers are variations of unbalanced previous powers, I tried to improve them and initial testing seem promising.

However, they are not perfect yet and I would really appreciate any suggestions or improvement you could have.


Here goes, races first


MERMAIDS (5/10): All water regions are adjacent and conquerable. Can only conquer single-token or empty regions (the idea is luring the people to their death is their only attack, but does that make them too weak? It is supposed to balance the powerful conquerable-adjacent water regions.).


UNICORNS (3/8): if an opponent conquers an unicorn region, he gains one unit back, however he must pay the price (2-3 tokens?). Works in Decline. (The idea is that their blood can heal, so they are a very tempting target. Also against them is the low number, but I want them to be rare. So they should be very expensive targets.)


ANGELS (5/10): Angels gain 2 VP for each bordering active race that was not attacked by Angels this round. Opponents which border Angels and do not attack Angels this round gain 1VP. Does not work in decline. The idea is angels want to defend peace, but is underpowered in 2 players. Any ideas to buff it? Either work in decline or work with declined races AND active races?)


DEMONS (5/10): When attacking, possess the token instead of sending it to tray. It can be used for defence and attack as long as accompanied by a demon on a 1:1 ratio. If conquered, the possessed token goes to the tray. If there is no possessed token, send a demon to the tray. (these seem not too bad as far as balancing goes)

DEMONS (5/10): For every few (same as # of players) tokens sent to the tray by any player, gain 1 vp (even in decline)

GHOSTS (5/14?): on the first turn they enter, place the well of souls on a region. It now gives +1 defence. Every token sent to the tray instead goes to the well, and for every (4? or n, where n is the number of players?) token, create a new ghost. If the well is conquered, send it to the tray. On the turn the ghosts decline, they vanish but you can immediately play a new race (a bit like the day that dispels the night, and the ghosts (always in decline) vanish.

GHOSTS (9/14): Enter the board as an in-decline race. If there was a previous in-decline race, they are all replaced by ghosts. As long as the owner plays with the ghosts, he has no active race. On the turn he would "decline" them, instead he chooses a new race and starts immediately playing.

GHOSTS 2 (9/14): Enter the board as an in-decline race. Does not replace the previous in-decline race. On the turn the player would "decline" them, instead he chooses a new race and starts immediately playing. The first in-decline race (if it still exists) disappears.


Powers:

MASONIC (3): On your first turn, build a wonder in one of your regions. This region is now immune, and it grants you a bonus of 2 VP per turn. When you decline, turn the token. It grants no more immunity, but 1VP per turn and 1 defense. Stays on the board until the end of the game. If it is conquered, it is worth only 1 defense to the opponent (like a mountain)

PORTAL (5): Gets 3 portal markers. On each turn, place (or move once all the portals are on the map) a portal on any region to conquer it, but it must be at least two regions away from the nearest portal. Gives 1VP if the portal is two regions away, 2VP if it is three or more regions away.
In decline, the portals stay, but are accessible to all races and make the three regions adjacent one another.

MERCIFUL (3) During a conquest, keep the token. The token stays in that region and generates 1 bonus vp per turn (soldiers become artisans and improve the economy). The token also acts as a +1 defence bonus (the unit will defend its land). If the same race as the token conquers the region, the opponent gains the token back. If another race conquers the region, the token is sent to the tray. In each case, one of the merciful
token is lost too.


EXPLORER (4): Bonus 1 vp for each terrain the same type as your first conquest. If a symbol is present on the terrain (e.g. mine), the bonus vp applies to all terrains containing that symbol.
This gives a bit more strategy on your entering region... compares however to all +1vp region-based powers


OLIPHAUNT MASTER (4): You receive two Oliphaunt tokens. On your turn, use them on up to two adjacent regions to conquer them as if they were empty. The tokens are returned to the owner if it is an active race, in decline ghouls or a Tomb race. Cannot be used on immune regions. During troop redeployment you pickup your two Oliphaunt tokens to use again during your next conquest.

My wife loves elephants and all simile, and this power is like dragon master without the immunity and without hurting the adversary (they run away unless nowhere to run)


HIDDEN (4): The first time during their turn that a player tries to conquer a hidden unit they must roll a die. On a 1, 2, or 3 they may attack your hidden race as normal. On a 0 they may not attack your hidden race for the rest of their turn.


ADAPTING (5): You can reroll once the conquest die if the first result is not favorable. Also, when one of your regions is conquested, you can immediately redeploy your tokens in hand, and you can redeploy all your tokens before each player's turn.

SIEGING (3): When attacking a region, ignore all defense other than the race tokens present (e.g. forts, encampments, mountains, troll lairs, shields...). If no defense is present (including mountain), conquer any region with -1. Cannot conquer immune regions.




If you read till here, kudos to you. I'd really appreciate any feedback.



Original Post wrote:
Hello

I have three races to suggest (after edit). The names are old, but their relative power might be kinda new.

Races:

Mermaids (5/10): All water regions are adjacent and conquerable. Can only conquer single-token or empty regions (the idea is luring the people to their death is their only attack). In decline regroups in water-regions only (this last point is up to debate, alternatively decline like normal races).

Unicorns (5/10?): when under attack, the attacker has to roll a die. If it is blank, he cannot attack that region for this turn. This is before he commits tokens, and he can use them all on another attack. the idea is that few are willing to kill unicorns (beautiful and rare race, also hard to find)

Ghosts (5/14?): on the first turn they enter, place the well of souls on a region. It now gives +1 defence. Every token sent to the tray instead goes to the well, and for every (4? or n, where n is the number of players?) token, create a new ghost. If the well is conquered, send it to the tray. On the turn the ghosts decline, they vanish but you can immediately play a new race (a bit like the day that dispels the night, and the ghosts (always in decline) vanish.

Power:

Merciful (5): If you choose to, during a conquest, attack the region at -1, give all tokens back to the other player who, grateful, gives you one VP.

I am toying with a mausoleum power, where the race in decline would regroup on the mausoleum, play like the ghouls but vanish if the mausoleum is conquered...

What do you think?
 
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Greg Wilson
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Re: 2 new races and one new power
nathanielz wrote:
Merciful (5): If you choose to, during a conquest, attack the region at -1, give all tokens back to the other player who, grateful, gives you one VP.


This seems really strong, basically a combination of Ransacking (4) and Commando (4), which are both good powers on their own. I'm not sure that inflicting no casualties balances out the double benefit.
 
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Nathaniel
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Re: 2 new races and one new power
Ok, then how about eliminating either the coin, or better yet the -1? Alternatively, it could be (3) with a choice for each conquest, either -1 attack OR 1 vp and let the token free.
 
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Greg Wilson
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Re: 2 new races and one new power
Or keep the tokens and give opponents the option of buying back their hostages.
 
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Nathaniel
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Re: 2 new races and one new power
That would be weaker than ransacking, where the opponent has no choice. It could work if the unsold tokens have a higher value at the end of the game, but it would be a bit like the Leaders expansion, and more slaver than merciful. Very interesting, but I'd still like to find a way to have a Merciful power.

What do you think of the rest, races and all?
 
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Greg Wilson
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Re: 2 new races and one new power
nathanielz wrote:
That would be weaker than ransacking, where the opponent has no choice.


Yeah, I was trying to back it off to a 5, but I think that version's too weak.
 
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Nathaniel
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Re: 2 new races and one new power
I think it should be 5, set the token free in exchange for 1 coin. 2 coins (1 from the bank and one from the player) would it be too powerful if the power is a 4?
 
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Nathaniel
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Original post edited and updated after a few suggestions!
 
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Nathaniel
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Here is the artwork of the five races, the angels, the unicorns, the mermaids, the demons and the ghosts! Note that the demons artwork does not come from me, but from the community compendium 1, I merely changed the power (they are nice looking); the ghosts artwork comes from another user, I modified the power and did a few tweaks.

Also, the four powers, Oliphaunt trainer, Explorer, Hidden and Merciful! For description, see original post











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Ron Harper
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Haven't really had a chance to look much at the rules for your new races but I just have to say that the artwork is very nice
 
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Nathaniel
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Thanks!!! When you have a minute, could you please check them out and tell me what you think of them?
 
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Ron Harper
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nathanielz wrote:
Thanks!!! When you have a minute, could you please check them out and tell me what you think of them?


There is some very cool stuff here.. Here are my initial thoughts.. I am not a designer so I could be off here..

MERMAIDS (5/10):
They don't sound too weak.. they have the benefit of potentially immune regions, if no other water-races are on the board, and if not using river rules, and that benefit would persist in decline as well..


UNICORNS (3/8):
I don't understand why you would choose Unicorns when the benefit goes to your opponents, expensive or not.. what is in it for the Unicorns? ..or am I reading that wrong?

ANGELS (5/10):
Neat idea! you might just say that it is broken in 2-player like Diplomat and to leave it out then..


DEMONS (5/10):
I like the idea.. sounds really strong to me.. the opponent's tokens are like trolls lairs but they can also be used on offence but don't work in decline if I read that right - that is seems pretty powerful to me.. I wouldn't give it 5.. also a separate token would keep the board less confusing..

GHOSTS (5/14?):
I like the theme of this one a lot.. if I understand this right then any time anybody loses a token it goes to the well? those tokens don't add to defence do they?


Powers:


MERCIFUL (3):
I think 3 sounds about right - it is powerful but the opponent getting tokens back makes it a 3 instead of a 2 I think..

EXPLORER (4):
I like this one a lot.. it is a little more powerful than forest or swamp..

OLIPHAUNT MASTER (4):
Cool! 4 sounds about right..


HIDDEN (4):
I think the uncertainty of this one makes it a little weaker.. maybe it would be a 5..
 
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Nathaniel
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Hi, thank you for your review!!

So, let's start, concerning hobbits Mermaids

holyguano wrote:

MERMAIDS (5/10):
They don't sound too weak.. they have the benefit of potentially immune regions, if no other water-races are on the board, and if not using river rules, and that benefit would persist in decline as well..

I didn't want them to be too strong either, since I compare them to krakens (SWU). On the other hand, the seafaring mermaid (or seafaring kraken for that matter) is broken, so I thought that a seafaring mermaid would get +1 coin for each region. This should take care of the mermaid-kraken-seafaring bermuda triangle.

holyguano wrote:

UNICORNS (3/8):
I don't understand why you would choose Unicorns when the benefit goes to your opponents, expensive or not.. what is in it for the Unicorns? ..or am I reading that wrong?

Here's the catch... they do get two coins (or three?) per unit, guaranteed! It is a kind of mix between double-corrupt and vanishing. The unicorn that loses a token (by all mean, even at end game) gets two tokens per unit. If it is by conquest, the opponent gives them to you (his incentive, one more region and one more of his tokens: his problem, he has to pay 2-3 vp...). If it is not by conquest (they leave the board because you have a second in decline race, or they make it to the last turn of the game) you still get the coins per token. See it as a long-time investment!

So if you have a [4] power, you WILL get 14 vp during their life-time. Comparing with dwarves, that will maybe hold 2 mines for 6 turns, and it is comparing. Give them three coins, and they will have 21 vp, making them very interesting.
It is basically a race that gains by disappearing (the unicorns sure did!)

Is it any clearer? Do they still seem underpowered? We tried them in a 4 player game, at two vp they were ok, maybe on the weakish side... maybe we'll try at 3 vp... OR give them a -1 for conquest for quicker expansion?


holyguano wrote:

ANGELS (5/10):
Neat idea! you might just say that it is broken in 2-player like Diplomat and to leave it out then..


Thanks! I will still try to fix it (I don't like blocking a race for 2 player games, so there might be a tweak there)

holyguano wrote:

DEMONS (5/10):
I like the idea.. sounds really strong to me.. the opponent's tokens are like trolls lairs but they can also be used on offence but don't work in decline if I read that right - that is seems pretty powerful to me.. I wouldn't give it 5.. also a separate token would keep the board less confusing..


They are strong, but they always have to be 1:1 ratio, so they'll never have more than 10 regions. It is a defense of +1 with some immortality, but it doesn't last in decline. So it is a mix of kobolds (2 per region restraint but no numbers) with trolls (defense but not in decline) and elves (immortal but not when alone in a region).
Maybe they'll need some testing, if they are too strong, maybe let them die when a region is conquered (along with the possessed token?)

I could use a secondary "possessed" token, but I kinda like the idea that you don't send the opponent's token to the tray, you litterally sit on top of it.... devil


holyguano wrote:

GHOSTS (5/14?):
I like the theme of this one a lot.. if I understand this right then any time anybody loses a token it goes to the well? those tokens don't add to defence do they?

Indeed, it goes to the well, adds nothing to the defense (a way to play it is place the tokens on the banner, and spawn ghosts tokens during your turn by sending a number of tokens from your banner to the tray).

It is inspired a lot by necromancer's island, but tweaked to be a real race!


Powers:

holyguano wrote:

MERCIFUL (3):
I think 3 sounds about right - it is powerful but the opponent getting tokens back makes it a 3 instead of a 2 I think..

EXPLORER (4):
I like this one a lot.. it is a little more powerful than forest or swamp..

OLIPHAUNT MASTER (4):
Cool! 4 sounds about right..

HIDDEN (4):
I think the uncertainty of this one makes it a little weaker.. maybe it would be a 5..


Explorer is indeed a bit more powerful than forest or swamp, but not enough to warrant a (3). And for hidden, I did hesitate if a 4 or 5 is better... I guess it will need more testing!

Thank you very much for your time!
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Citizen Andrew
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Amazing! Great Work!

Mermaids & Unicorns!

My gf will eat this up. Won't be any trouble convincing her to play small world with these additions.

Any recommendations for printing these? Is arts cow an option? I would like to get them to closely match original version.
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Nathaniel
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Hi, thank you for your review!

To print them, you could contact Andrew (Howitzer_120mm), he has a small shop from what I understand, and specializes in printing these. The finished look is very good!

What do you think of the other races or powers? Any ways to improve them?

Thanks again, and tell me later if you do play them with you GF and how the game goes with the races!!!
 
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Nathaniel
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MAIN POST UPDATED

added two new powers

ADAPTING (5): You can reroll once the conquest die if the first result is not favorable. Also, when one of your regions is conquested, you can immediately redeploy your tokens in hand, and you can redeploy all your tokens before each player's turn.

SIEGING (3): When attacking a region, ignore all defense other than the race tokens present (e.g. forts, encampments, mountains, troll lairs, shields...). If no defense is present, conquer any region with -1. Cannot conquer immune regions.
 
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J
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Alright lets see what I can add to this.

nathanielz wrote:
Hello all again!
MERMAIDS (5/10): All water regions are adjacent and conquerable. Can only conquer single-token or empty regions (the idea is luring the people to their death is their only attack, but does that make them too weak? It is supposed to balance the powerful conquerable-adjacent water regions.).


Hmmmmmmm this one is very interesting. The comparison to Seafaring and Kraken is obvious. I'm not sure if they need the detriment or not though you are right that being able to instantly take all 3 water regions is very strong unless seafaring is in. I would lean towards saying with the detriment they are fair as it helps distinguish it from the seafaring ability though their correct number of units would probably be between 5 and 6. I'd advise carefully play testing to see how it works out and see if they feel too weak/strong at 5/6 units.

Oh and if they get drawn with seafaring just redraw the ability. There are other instances in the game where abilities and races can render the other useless or redundant (mostly when mixing SWU with the base game) and this was how the decided to deal with it.

Ph and you need to specify whether or not they can hold water regions while in decline.

Quote:
UNICORNS (3/8): if an opponent conquers an unicorn region, he gains one unit back, however he must pay the price (2-3 tokens?). Works in Decline. (The idea is that their blood can heal, so they are a very tempting target. Also against them is the low number, but I want them to be rare. So they should be very expensive targets.)


For the most part this race is way to strong. Basically they are a hybrid between the Corrupt and Liches ability but on steroids. You've tried to balance it by making it slightly beneficial to attack them but all you've done is create a different problem.

In the base game there were some factions with a lot of extra units. You had Skeletons and Sorcerers who had a ton of extra units and Amazons who had a lot of extra units but only for Offense. This creates a very bad problem. The issue is ability powers and other game effects which can cause your race to grow end up helping factions with a lot of extra units much more disproportionately than factions which weren't supposed to grow and don't have extra units to use.

What I'm saying is Unicorns as they are would be way too strong against factions that start with all their tokens as these factions would gain no benefit but a huge detriment for going after them even in decline.

Further consider the fact that when playing with the leaders expansions you only need to pay 1 coin to the bank to get an additional unit.

The closest I could advise for a fix to these guys would be give them 2 units, remove the growing units back ability and reduce the payment to 1 coin for attacking. This helps line them up with White Ladies who have a universal defense while in decline but no defense while active (Unicorns have defense both while active and while declined but a weaker one).


Quote:
ANGELS (5/10): Angels gain 2 VP for each bordering active race that was not attacked by Angels this round. Opponents which border Angels and do not attack Angels this round gain 1VP. Does not work in decline. The idea is angels want to defend peace, but is underpowered in 2 players. Any ideas to buff it? Either work in decline or work with declined races AND active races?)

You know I saw a power just like this one linked to a race called Fauns. I actually think its fine and has a cool theme with fair mechanics. Probably should reduce it to 4 (3 might be too low, I'm not sure but 5 is definitely too high) units as not only is it a strong point scoring ability but it comes with an inherent defense ability as well.

Quote:
DEMONS (5/10): When attacking, possess the token instead of sending it to tray. It can be used for defence and attack as long as accompanied by a demon on a 1:1 ratio. If conquered, the possessed token goes to the tray. If there is no possessed token, send a demon to the tray. (these seem not too bad as far as balancing goes)

Pretty sure I've seen this one too. Need to specify what happens with possessed tokens when you decline. Can they only possess active tokens?


Quote:
GHOSTS (5/14?): on the first turn they enter, place the well of souls on a region. It now gives +1 defence. Every token sent to the tray instead goes to the well, and for every (4? or n, where n is the number of players?) token, create a new ghost. If the well is conquered, send it to the tray. On the turn the ghosts decline, they vanish but you can immediately play a new race (a bit like the day that dispels the night, and the ghosts (always in decline) vanish.

Very complex, I want 3 things: 1, use the anti-stout, which is decline AND choose a new race (possibly before all the others who declined before you). Second thing is using the 14 tokens of the necromancer island expansion. They are always in decline, hence declining means disappearing (like the lord of the rings army of ghosts). Last, I like the idea that the more people fight, the stronger they get (more dead tokens = more ghosts...)


Sorry you are trying to stuff too much into one race. I cannot begin to give constructive comments on this one cause you have too much going on.


Powers:


Quote:
MERCIFUL (3) During a conquest, keep the token. The token stays in that region and generates 1 bonus vp per turn (soldiers become artisans and improve the economy). The token also acts as a +1 defence bonus (the unit will defend its land). If the same race as the token conquers the region, the opponent gains the token back. If another race conquers the region, the token is sent to the tray. In each case, one of the merciful
token is lost too.

(too powerful? weak? Technically it could be like Merchant (2) with a +1 defence, however they are tempting to get the token back after a conquest. If too powerful, maybe give only 2 tokens?)

I'm inclined to say that it is too weak. Again you need to specify decline or active races before I can give proper feedback on it.


Quote:
EXPLORER (4): Bonus 1 vp for each terrain the same type as your first conquest. If a symbol is present on the terrain (e.g. mine), the bonus vp applies to all terrains containing that symbol.
This gives a bit more strategy on your entering region... compares however to all +1vp region-based powers


Way too strong. Abilities that JUST give bonus vp for a specific terrain type come with 4 units and grant no flexibility or bonus points from symbols.


Quote:
OLIPHAUNT MASTER (4): You receive two Oliphaunt tokens. On your turn, use them on up to two adjacent regions to conquer them as if they were empty. The tokens are returned to the owner if it is an active race, in decline ghouls or a Tomb race. Cannot be used on immune regions. During troop redeployment you pickup your two Oliphaunt tokens to use again during your next conquest.

My wife loves elephants and all simile, and this power is like dragon master without the immunity and without hurting the adversary (they run away unless nowhere to run)

Do the tokens add to defense in any way? If not they are probably fair. If they do I'll need to take a second look at the race.


Quote:
HIDDEN (4): The first time during their turn that a player tries to conquer a hidden unit they must roll a die. On a 1, 2, or 3 they may attack your hidden race as normal. On a 0 they may not attack your hidden race for the rest of their turn.

Again, this should be not too bad. Diplomat (5) guarantees protection against 1 race, since we normally border 2 active races, 50% odds means one race should not attack.


This one is fairly unoriginal (I've seen it proposed multiple times with different names). Probably would be fair with 5 tokens as in the end you are just gambling.

Quote:
ADAPTING (5): You can reroll once the conquest die if the first result is not favorable. Also, when one of your regions is conquested, you can immediately redeploy your tokens in hand, and you can redeploy all your tokens before each player's turn.


I'm inclined to say that the race is underpowered as is. Manipulating the conquest die roll is just a weak version of the Dragon master ability. Manipulating your tokens between turns could be interesting but often it cases extra downtime during the game and has limits on how useful it is compared to other abilities with outright defense boosts.
Quote:

SIEGING (3): When attacking a region, ignore all defense other than the race tokens present (e.g. forts, encampments, mountains, troll lairs, shields...). If no defense is present (including mountain), conquer any region with -1. Cannot conquer immune regions.


So for the most part this is just a weak commando ability except when up against a few specific powers and race combinations? that isn't a very good mechanic. Try not to make powers that basically require specific other powers in the gain a benefit unless it is a very general (like Gnomes) as its basically overpowered in some situations and pathetic in all others.

Oh and encampments are considered race tokens and would be immune to this ability.
 
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Nathaniel
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Awesome, thank you for your review. Here is additional info:

Mermaids: I was thinking to let them hold the water regions while in decline, but 3 guaranteed regions, that's a lot. Maybe let them hold ONLY water regions in decline? 3 guaranteed, but only 3... and not if seafaring is active...


Unicorns, the idea is to replenish the forces one lost through enemy conquest. So let's say merchant orcs start, they will not be able to get 10 roaming orcs... so the restriction isn't only on 5 tokens powers.
On another hand, it is the first time I see them as overpowered... I was leaning on 2 VP after a few games, not 3 as the initial post suggests.

The main idea was to give the enemy's unit regeneration ability and have few numbers for the unicorns. To balance that, I tried to compare with dwarves. They aren't as juicy a target (especially when you lost a token), however the dwarves gain maybe 2 extra vp per turn (active + in decline, if they keep 2 mines for a while). 6 turns, that would be 12 VP. 8 unicorns, that's 16 vp, so it should be a bit better than dwarves, but not that much...


Angels, 4 could be ok, but it's little when playing on a 2 players board. They get 2 VP per race (active or passive) that they don't attack, the opponent gets 1 vp per active race that doesn't attack. So it's basically a +3 VP power.

Demons, when you decline you lose all possessed tokens (they go back to the original owner if still active, or to the tray if not). I fear they are overpowered, but I compare it to kobolds (they have to stay 1:1 with the possessed token). I was thinking of possessing active or in decline tokens, but maybe they can only possess active tokens? Would it be more balanced? Or the opposite, possess only declined tokens???


Ghosts, I will see what I can do, maybe I will split it in 2 races.

Powers,

merciful works on all races, active or in decline. Maybe they should not lose one token when with a spared token and they get conquered? But that could make them too powerful, compared even to demons...

Explorer still gives only 1 vp, even if you have magic forest, the symbol overrides the base terrain. In that case, you will get 1 vp for all magic lands (not for forest). If the first conquest is in a normal forest, you will get 1vp for all forests.
The only addition to forest, for example, is the ability to choose your bonus with the first conquest, however that doesn't warrant a (3) power, does it?

Oliphaunt: The tokens are removed at the end of your turn, so they do not give any defense.

Hidden, 5 sounds good

Adapting, do you have any idea on how to improve it?

Sieging is weaker than commando in that you have one fewer token. However, I thought the possible bonus to negate all bonus defence (including encampments) could offset it. If I put it at (4), it will be strictly stronger than commando. Would that be better?


Again, thank you very much for your time!!!
 
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Quote:
Mermaids: I was thinking to let them hold the water regions while in decline, but 3 guaranteed regions, that's a lot. Maybe let them hold ONLY water regions in decline? 3 guaranteed, but only 3... and not if seafaring is active...


With the detriment they are probably fine at 5. It is a strong power no doubt but having only 5 units without a (true) point scoring ability and a detriment should make them fine


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Unicorns, the idea is to replenish the forces one lost through enemy conquest. So let's say merchant orcs start, they will not be able to get 10 roaming orcs... so the restriction isn't only on 5 tokens powers.
On another hand, it is the first time I see them as overpowered... I was leaning on 2 VP after a few games, not 3 as the initial post suggests.

The main idea was to give the enemy's unit regeneration ability and have few numbers for the unicorns. To balance that, I tried to compare with dwarves. They aren't as juicy a target (especially when you lost a token), however the dwarves gain maybe 2 extra vp per turn (active + in decline, if they keep 2 mines for a while). 6 turns, that would be 12 VP. 8 unicorns, that's 16 vp, so it should be a bit better than dwarves, but not that much...


The issue is taking a 4 point hit (I lose 2 points you gain 2 points) is huge and not worth taking back an extra token with. While there attributes that have less than 5 units when they start there are also a lot of attributes that start with 5 units. For the majority races this means they will start with all their units and the Unicorns regions will be effectively unconqueable since the point loss will be much too great.

As for the idea that attribute-race combos that start with all their units can recover units that you lost due to being conquered consider this

Turn 1 with a race you have just entered the board hence your defense should be fairly good making it very unlikely that you'll be attacked

Turn 2 with a race you will spread more making it more likely that you will be attacked.

Turn 3 if you were attacked you could attack a unicorn to recover a piece.

Turn 4 This is likely the turn you could use the recovered piece. It is also the point that your race should be so exhausted that you are ready to decline making paying for that extra unit even more useless.

Paying 2 points for 1 unit is a terrible deal. Hence even allowing other units to regrow the Unicorns ability is a monstrously strong defensive ability that you've allowed them to have both while declined and while active. Hence I have to look at the race as a Corrupt-Liche combo. Combining Corrupt-Liche into one race would yield a very strong 3.5 unit Race. But then if you increase the payment to 2 coins instead of 1 while both active AND decline its so much worse which brings it down to about 2 unit Race since it's not a perfect defense like the White Ladies have but it is a near perfect one that unlike the White Ladies, Unicorns have both while active and declined.

If anything the only thing that allowing units to be regrown will accomplish will be fooling people who can't tell that paying 2 coins for an extra unit is a bad deal and might make them attack you when they really shouldn't.


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Angels, 4 could be ok, but it's little when playing on a 2 players board. They get 2 VP per race (active or passive) that they don't attack, the opponent gets 1 vp per active race that doesn't attack. So it's basically a +3 VP power.


The thing is it's ultimately a Hybrid defense and Point scoring ability that scales based on the number of people playing. It's better for the power to be underpowered in 2 player than for it to be overpowered in 4 or 5 player games.


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Demons, when you decline you lose all possessed tokens (they go back to the original owner if still active, or to the tray if not). I fear they are overpowered, but I compare it to kobolds (they have to stay 1:1 with the possessed token). I was thinking of possessing active or in decline tokens, but maybe they can only possess active tokens? Would it be more balanced? Or the opposite, possess only declined tokens???

The biggest problem with these guys is they are effectively a different take on sorcerers and Skeletons. Skeletons grow by killing stuff while Sorcerers take over other units. I've actually seen it proposed a lot. My guess is that the designers never wanted a situation where 2 different races were occupying 1 territory so they went out of their way to avoid such a thing from happening. It might be fair but it's very hard to say


Quote:
Explorer still gives only 1 vp, even if you have magic forest, the symbol overrides the base terrain. In that case, you will get 1 vp for all magic lands (not for forest). If the first conquest is in a normal forest, you will get 1vp for all forests.
The only addition to forest, for example, is the ability to choose your bonus with the first conquest, however that doesn't warrant a (3) power, does it?


Unfortunately it does. Flexibility is huge in this game and if you grant them the ability to score from both Symbols and terrain types (even though its not the same time) that warrants docking them another unit. It would be nice to somehow mark what gives them bonus points as bookkeeping is a pain in any game.

Quote:

Oliphaunt: The tokens are removed at the end of your turn, so they do not give any defense.


Hmmmmmmm they might be fair. My only concern is that it might be too good against certain factions like Trolls or abilities like Fortified. Try them out as you have them and if they seem too strong restrict them to being usable on each player once per turn. Otherwise they are fine.


Quote:
Adapting, do you have any idea on how to improve it?

Unfortunately it's not easy. Abilities that outright give attack and defense boosts (Catipult, Dragon Master, Hordes of) just leaves it in the dust.


Quote:
Sieging is weaker than commando in that you have one fewer token. However, I thought the possible bonus to negate all bonus defence (including encampments) could offset it. If I put it at (4), it will be strictly stronger than commando. Would that be better?


Negating all bonus defense might seem clever but it's not very good. It basically makes Sieging a counter to a few select powers like Shield and otherwise a very weak version of commando (how often do you have more than 1 +1 none race token defense on a region?). Giving them the same as commando would be much worse since commando is already a very strong power at 4.

Unfortunately I personally don't believe any power that negates abilities while on offense will ever work. It just makes it too strong vs a few specific powers. Think about it like this.

Gnomes have a power that negates powers on defense. If I have Gnomes its like I'm saying "your power doesn't work on my 4-10 regions but it works just fine on the other 10-20 regions".

On the other hand a power that negates abilities on offense says "my power ONLY works on your 4-10 regions. It does not work on the other 10-20 regions so I guess I'll just massacre you".
 
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Nathaniel
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Concerning mermaids, do you think it is better to make them abandon sea regions, or keep only sea regions? I thought the latter, since it is more accurate to lore, what do you think?

Unicorn, it makes sense to decrease to 2 units.

Angels, actually do you really think they scale with the number of players? Even with a 5 players board, it is unlikely that the angels will be surrounded by more than 3-4 races at one time, so maybe 2-3 races giving the bonus considering one race attacked.

Demons, I've been thinking about what you said, obviously it makes sense. I will test if the power works only on active or declined races, might weaken them a bit

Explorer do have a map token to place on their first region (no bonus defense), so it serves as book-keeping. Also, (3) makes sense.

Oliphaunts are actually a good argument to dismiss sieging... In between Commando, Dragon, Oliphaunts, and with SWU, Ogres, Flames and Balrog, there are plenty of counters to fortified, Encampment, Trolls and Shield.

I will see for the ghosts from necromancer island, there is plenty packed in it, but maybe I can weed off some stuff. The idea of a race that is never active (only shows the in decline side, therefore never can ENTER decline) could be enough. The only problem would be that to obey the one race in decline only, their entry would eliminate the previous race; however, on any turn you could just stop playing them and start with a new race. No growing with well of souls in that case...

Thank you again for your comments!
 
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nathanielz wrote:
SIEGING (3): When attacking a region, ignore all defense other than the race tokens present (e.g. forts, encampments, mountains, troll lairs, shields...). If no defense is present (including mountain), conquer any region with -1. Cannot conquer immune regions.
[/q]

The extra defenses always had just +1 to defense (unless someone double stacked their Bivouacking), so to have Siege ignore that and have -1 to everything else that doesnt have extra defense on it is essentially the Commando ability.

Technically, this ability is worse since Commando is -1 to everything and allows for 4 additional race tokens whereas yours is -1 to all non-defenses and ignore defense (which again is just -1 unless they double stacked a bivouacking) for only 3 additional race tokens. It's literally the exact same ability for less race tokens for the user.
 
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Greg Wilson
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I think multiple mushroom shields also stack.

Of course, it's also possible to put a defence token on a mountain, or have fortified trolls, or something like that.

(Or even fortified trolls on mountains. Gah.)

It won't often be better than commando, but it can be occasionally. And with four race tokens it'd be flat-out better.
 
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Nathaniel
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You are right, I think sieging is not such a good idea...

On the other hand, here is a couple new versions of ghosts:

GHOSTS (9/14): Enter the board as an in-decline race. If there was a previous in-decline race, they are all replaced by ghosts. As long as the owner plays with the ghosts, he has no active race. On the turn he would "decline" them, instead he chooses a new race and starts immediately playing.

GHOSTS 2 (9/14): Enter the board as an in-decline race. Does not replace the previous in-decline race. On the turn the player would "decline" them, instead he chooses a new race and starts immediately playing. The first in-decline race (if it still exists) disappears.

What do you think?

The first one has the great disadvantage of eliminating immediately a race just declined (and lots of VP). I'm trying to offset that by adding an almost "stout" power (they can start playing a new race at any time)

The second one is closer to a standard race, but being at 9 tokens plus the almost stout power, that's too strong...

Any suggestions?
 
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