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Subject: Terraforming Home Terrain rss

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Big Easier

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Can you terraform an empty terrain that is already your home terrain to another terrain type? How about terraforming it from your home terrain back to your home terrain?
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Arne Hoffmann
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You can always terraform from any terrain to a different one as long as you have the right number of shovels. So, yes to terraforming your home terrain to a different one.

I would object to terraforming home terrain into home terrain in one step with use of shovels (e.g. in order to gain VP for it). This I would see as a zero-shovel terraform. However, going in two steps, with two actions, I do not see a problem here.
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Dominic Lauke
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No. Sorry
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Hal
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bigeasier wrote:
Can you terraform an empty terrain that is already your home terrain to another terrain type?

Yes, you can. Page 10 of rules
Quote:
• You do not need to transform a Terrain space into your Home terrain, you may stop at any other type of terrain (e.g. if you cannot afford more Spades). However, during their turns, your opponents may claim that Terrain space for themselves.


bigeasier wrote:
How about terraforming it from your home terrain back to your home terrain?

I'm unsure about this. I guess you mean by spending a whole load of shovels and going all the way around the wheel? I don't think it would be allowed, it says you may change the type, and going back to your home terrain doesn't change the type.
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Big Easier

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So that's a yes to terraforming home to different, but no to terraforming home to home? Just nitpicking here but if you can do #1 and you can choose to take an unoptimal path to a terrain type, why couldn't you do #2? Just trying to feel out if any officially rulings apply here.
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Hal
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Edit: This turned out to be wrong.

From the section on cost of terraforming, p. 11:
Quote:
Transformation has its price: Each step between the
source and destination terrain on the Transformation
cycle of your Faction board costs 1 Spade. Thus, transforming adjacent types of terrain (on the Transformation
cycle) into one another costs 1 Spade, with a maximum
cost of up to 3 Spades if they are on opposite sides of the
cycle as you can move in either direction on the cycle


Max cost of 3 suggests you must take the cheapest around path the terraforming wheel, and must change the type.
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Big Easier

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According to other posts around this board, and I think with the designers backing, you don't need to pick the optimal path when terraforming.
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Hal
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Yeah, sorry, I hadn't read those previously. I was just looking through the forum and spotted those threads now, so ignore me I guess.
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Neil Christiansen
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Allowing players to choose sub-optimal path opens up to much chicanery in my book (and therefore requires other fixes for some factions).

We will be going with "up to 3" rule.
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David Hoffman
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Assuming the OP's question relates to scenarios where one would score points for generating spades, and thus want to generate the most possible spades in a single action, I would think the "max 3" rule would apply to a single terrain hex BUT I believe overage is allowed for a second hex, no?

Further, I believe the rules state that generated spades cannot be used beyond that second hex (in a single action) and are therefore lost. Would those spades be usable for points, however?
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Hal
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I think the option to transform a second hex is applicable when you have a shovel left over from taking a two shovel power action, and doing a one shovel terraform first. As I read it, when taking the regular action, shovels are bought as required to reach the desired terrain type (going either way around the wheel), and surplus couldn't be generated. Replies from one of the designers in the other thread said a max of 6 shovels per terraform, so you couldn't go around the wheel more than once on the same action (I think?)

The max of 3 makes sense to me and I'm tempted to play that way, but it doesn't appear to be the official ruling.

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Big Easier

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I think we'll stick with the max 3 rule too. We all played for the first time last night, and I think if we had "exploited" the non-optimal route rule to grind up shovel points, people would have been less enamored with the game. The general feeling already was that halflings had a nice little advantage already, and if they saw me doing this they would have called shenanigans.

One of the things that I really like about this game is there is enough theme to go with all of its euro-depth. Theme generally starts to thin out when you start pronouncing game mechanics like this, and something like the non-optimal rule really highlights that notion. The game goes from "I'm advancing my mighty faction by expanding my land", to "I'm getting tons of VPs grinding around this terrain wheel".
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Philip Thomas
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But the Max 3 cost is really a red herring here, the true issue is whether you can Terraform Home Terrain at all !
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Neil Christiansen
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We understand what the designer said.

Some of us prefer to play a house rule that says "you must take the shortest route possible to the terrain you are transforming to".

By allowing otherwise, other odd things happen that require other rule fixes such as those proposed by said designer.

It is how we played it (perhaps because of the max 3 wording) and it works well. No need playing that way to gerrymander where shovel tiles come out either.
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Neil Christiansen
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I would allow terraforming home terrain to something else (max 3) and back on a different action.
 
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Moisés Solé
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But at the same place where designers said you can go either way (which by the way, it is shown on the player boards, or there'd be no shovel between the bottom two terrains in the wheel), they also said that you couldn't change a terrain once it was your home terrain. And Giamts get even more punished if you allow that.
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Daniel Cristofani
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referee wrote:
But at the same place where designers said you can go either way (which by the way, it is shown on the player boards, or there'd be no shovel between the bottom two terrains in the wheel),


That's a faulty inference. If you want to transform something from your lower left terrain to your lower right terrain, the shortest route is across the bottom. So that bottom shovel is needed even if you must take the shortest route between the two terrains you've chosen.
 
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Rollo Tomosi
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If it's empty terrain-its not your home terrain.

If there is empty terrain that is adjacent to any of your buildings-you are free to terraform it to any other terrain via any pathway you choose.
 
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Robert Stewart
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There are scenarios where being forced to terraform towards your home terrain by the most shovel-efficient path is a clear disadvantage - if you have the resources for two shovels, a given hex would require three, and is also neighboured by a player whose home terrain is the terrain it would become were you to spend two shovels on terraforming it toward your home terrain (or the terrain between its current terrain and the terrain you would change it to) - in that scenario, using the two shovels you can generate immediately would leave it vulnerable to the other player building on it; terraforming it two shovels worth of the long way round would leave it safe(r) from interference, even if it costs you more in the long run...

On the other hand, yeah, grinding shovels for points is bad flavour even if it's acceptable by the rules...
 
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Robert
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I believe the official rulings are these:
1. When you transform terrain, you pick a direction on the terrain circle. You can't reverse direction in a single transform action.
2. As you go around the terrain circle you have to stop when you get to your home terrain.
3. You can transform terrain that is not your home terrain to any other terrain.
4. You can transform terrain that is your home terrain to any other terrain but your home terrain.

So no doubling over the same terrain types twice because of 2, which means you can not quite go all the way around the circle when transforming away from your home terrain.

Following these 4 simple rules should eliminate all perceived weirdness, and you'd be playing the game by the rules the designers intended.
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