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Subject: Yakov riding a tank rss

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Marco Arnaudo
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Can Yakov use his "legendary tactician" skill if he's inside a tank like Mao Zedong? I know usually you can't use skills when riding tanks, but this is an initiative skill that works even when Yakov's not on the board, so I got to wonder...

 
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Bryan Buchsdrucker
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When riding outside the tank, a unit can use its skills.

A unit cannot be inside a Mao Zedong, only outside.
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Marco Arnaudo
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Byrns wrote:
When riding outside the tank, a unit can use its skills.

A unit cannot be inside a Mao Zedong, only outside.


good point! What if he's inside a tank with the "Carry" skill, or a copter with the "carry" skill?
 
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Bryan Buchsdrucker
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I play that his skill still goes off, its only requirement is that he's in the army.
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Thiago Aranha
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The bonus to initiative certainly should still count, since it's already been stated that Joe's Black Ops is in effect even if he hasn't deployed yet.

However, the other effect of Legendary Tactician, improved cover to adjacent squads, is a more debatable issue. I'm tempted to say that it's in effect.
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Marco Arnaudo
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Loophole Master wrote:

However, the other effect of Legendary Tactician, improved cover to adjacent squads, is a more debatable issue. I'm tempted to say that it's in effect.


the rules about "carry" say that no skill can be used unless otherwise specified. "Legendary tactician" doesn't otherwise specify, so it seems no to me...

also, if he's inside a 4-square tank, which squares count as adjacent to him? all those adjacent top the tank? that would extend the range of his skill in a quite ridiculous way...
 
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Thiago Aranha
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Yeah, we have a bit of a conflict here. The carrier says a unit inside "cannot use any skills", but Legendary Tactician says it's in effect as long as the unit with it is in the army.

To rule that it cannot be used if the unit is being carried seems very dangerous. What about the first round? You're deploying Yakov inside a carrier, but when you roll initiative you have not yet done so.
 
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Marco Arnaudo
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Loophole Master wrote:
Yeah, we have a bit of a conflict here. The carrier says a unit inside "cannot use any skills", but Legendary Tactician says it's in effect as long as the unit with it is in the army.

To rule that it cannot be used if the unit is being carried seems very dangerous. What about the first round? You're deploying Yakov inside a carrier, but when you roll initiative you have not yet done so.


this is why I agree that the rule about initiative should work even if he's in a tank, or outside the board, but the one about cover based on adjacency probably shouldn't. Because the one about adjacency is by definition based on where Yakov is on the board, so his location matters for the skill to be in effect.
 
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Dave Smith
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The rules say skills do not work inside a vehicle and this still applies to Joe too, sure his Black Ops works before any deployment but models are not inside a vehicle until they get deployed. The same goes for Yakov, his skill works before the game starts and deploys in the vehicle. Besides you can't have half of Yakov's skill working and the other half not.
 
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Marco Arnaudo
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Major Mishap wrote:
The rules say skills do not work inside a vehicle and this still applies to Joe too, sure his Black Ops works before any deployment but models are not inside a vehicle until they get deployed. The same goes for Yakov, his skill works before the game starts and deploys in the vehicle.


This makes sense... uhm... However, it makes me wonder about a statement that was made above:

Loophole Master wrote:
The bonus to initiative certainly should still count, since it's already been stated that Joe's Black Ops is in effect even if he hasn't deployed yet.


What is the actual source about Joe's skill? If it is an official clarification from the publisher, than I guess it could be reasonably extended to Yakov too. If it is "common wisdom" among players, the matter is much more slippery, and I find Major Mishap's interpretation quite strong...
 
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Thiago Aranha
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marnaudo wrote:
What is the actual source about Joe's skill? If it is an official clarification from the publisher, than I guess it could be reasonably extended to Yakov too.

It's not just "common wisdom", it's from the official FAQ, page 11. I think it shows that Black Ops (and by extension Legendary Tactician) are abilities that are in effect as long as the unit with it are in the army, regardless of its situation. With the new Sewer Rules where deployment can be made in 2nd round as well, you could use BlackOps twice before Joe even enters the battlefield!

And I agree that it would be a bit crazy to split Legendary Tactician in 2 and have half of it work and half not. I'd still go with it working.
 
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Marco Arnaudo
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Loophole Master wrote:
marnaudo wrote:
What is the actual source about Joe's skill? If it is an official clarification from the publisher, than I guess it could be reasonably extended to Yakov too.

It's not just "common wisdom", it's from the official FAQ, page 11. I think it shows that Black Ops (and by extension Legendary Tactician) are abilities that are in effect as long as the unit with it are in the army, regardless of its situation. With the new Sewer Rules where deployment can be made in 2nd round as well, you could use BlackOps twice before Joe even enters the battlefield!

And I agree that it would be a bit crazy to split Legendary Tactician in 2 and have half of it work and half not. I'd still go with it working.


but then what squares do you count as adjacent to Yakov for the cover benefit if he's in or on a tank that occupies 4 squares? and can being in the air on a copter count as being adjacent to things on the ground?
 
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Thiago Aranha
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marnaudo wrote:
but then what squares do you count as adjacent to Yakov for the cover benefit if he's in or on a tank that occupies 4 squares? and can being in the air on a copter count as being adjacent to things on the ground?

Yeah, that's the trickier part. Thankfully the SSU doesn't have 4-square vehicles, so at most he'll influence the adjacent spaces around one of the 2-square tanks. As for choppers, is a ground square "adjacent" to a chopper? Dunno... I'd rule it as yes. A tactician aboard a chopper makes a lot of sense.
 
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Just got an official answer:

Are the skills BlackOps and Legendary Tactician still in full effect when the units with them are being carried inside a vehicle (where supposedly skills cannot be used)?

Yes. These are passive abilities that affect the initiative roll. They are not abilities that are activated by units that have them. For example, Blutkreuz Zombie is a skill, but it is a passive one. A squad of Axis Zombies does not stop being a squad of zombies as soon as it is transported by a vehicle.

Although it does seem Zach didn't give much thought to Legendary Tactician's improved cover effect.
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Marco Arnaudo
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Loophole Master wrote:
Yeah, that's the trickier part. Thankfully the SSU doesn't have 4-square vehicles, so at most he'll influence the adjacent spaces around one of the 2-square tanks. As for choppers, is a ground square "adjacent" to a chopper? Dunno... I'd rule it as yes. A tactician aboard a chopper makes a lot of sense.


but how would he communicate with the people he's helping in adjacent spaces? When on the ground he's clearly shouting orders, because he has no radio, nor having a radio is a requirement for being helped by him. When on a copter, he's really high up, and with the engine noise I just can't see how he could be of help to his troops - even though he'd certainly have a great situational awareness from up there...

Loophole Master wrote:
Just got an official answer:

Are the skills BlackOps and Legendary Tactician still in full effect when the units with them are being carried inside a vehicle (where supposedly skills cannot be used)?

Yes. These are passive abilities that affect the initiative roll. They are not abilities that are activated by units that have them. For example, Blutkreuz Zombie is a skill, but it is a passive one. A squad of Axis Zombies does not stop being a squad of zombies as soon as it is transported by a vehicle.

Although it does seem Zach didn't give much thought to Legendary Tactician's improved cover effect.


well, at least we got the initiative but sorted out!
 
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Thiago Aranha
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Asked a follow-up question to Zach to try and get this straight:

When a unit with the Legendary Tactician skill is within a transport, the unit is removed from the board (with the exception of one figure to show that the unit is being carried within the transport). While off the board in this manner, the unit is not adjacent to any other units; therefore, other squads do not benefit from the Legendary Tactician skill.

So, bottom line is, half of the skill is always in effect (improved initiative) and half of it disappears when the unit is being carried (improved cover). This is some heavy rules acrobatics, but all in all I like the end result. It might not make a ton of sense rules-wise, but it makes sense for the situation.
 
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Marco Arnaudo
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Loophole Master wrote:
Asked a follow-up question to Zach to try and get this straight:

When a unit with the Legendary Tactician skill is within a transport, the unit is removed from the board (with the exception of one figure to show that the unit is being carried within the transport). While off the board in this manner, the unit is not adjacent to any other units; therefore, other squads do not benefit from the Legendary Tactician skill.

So, bottom line is, half of the skill is always in effect (improved initiative) and half of it disappears when the unit is being carried (improved cover). This is some heavy rules acrobatics, but all in all I like the end result. It might not make a ton of sense rules-wise, but it makes sense for the situation.


it seems like a decent compromise. Thank you for looking into this!
 
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