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Subject: What would you change? rss

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Alex Bourne
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So if Heroscape 2.0 came out tomorrow what would you change about the game. As much as people love Heroscape I'm sure there are things people would want to do a little different.

All start it out...

#1 The Cover:

I remember when Heroscape used to be carried right beside Monopoly and the rest of the mainstream games. I never gave it a second thought because it just looked like a toy to me (granted this was before I really got into gaming). It doesn't really have anything to do with game-play... but it would have helped me get into the game before it went completely out of print.

#2 The Cards

I like the size of the cards I've just never liked the shape. I really like putting my cards in sleeves and I always like when a game is "standard" enough to sleeve.

#3 More Trees and Mountains

I wish there had been more "extra terrain" to buy. Forgotten Forest, Wasteland, and Tundra are some of best and funnest components to play with. I'm sure if the game had continued they would have continued to release new scenarios, but at this point that doesn't really do me any good.

...
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Carl Wilhelm

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I would streamline the terrain expansions and make them just that: terrain expansions.
No more heroes/squads included.

I would also make expansions of just grass/rock/sand/water for those that
don't want to buy multiples of a masterset just for the terrain.

Same goes for other terrain.

I would make LOS blocker expansions with just the LOS blockers.


I would keep the cards the same. (I put mine in a cd organizer.)
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Pete aka The Masked Minstrel
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All of the above plus release more Marvel heroscape.
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John "Omega" Williams
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I think the box was fine. It showed me exactly what the game was about and seeing the stacked terrain tiles really grabbed my attention.

I like the cards and as the above pointed out. Yep, they fit in CD sleeves. And in sandwich bags.

More decorative features!

Some props! Treasure chests, tables, bookshelves, chairs, etc.
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Aaron Tubb
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Man, the box was awesome!

More props, buildings, and natural objects would be great. Furniture, cars, wrecked buildings, trees, waterfall pieces, etc.
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Bruce Moffatt
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I'm in the 'love the packaging' camp too. Aside from that, everything else said above, and this:

A publisher that treats it with some respect!

If we can get that, I don't care if it comes wrapped in brown (recycled) paper...
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suPUR DUEper
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-change the booster packaging strategy so you aren't manufacturing the same number of heroes as you are commons. I am sure a lot of retailers got stuck with a whole bunch of hero packs
-change the line of sight rules so that a target that is partially blocked gets a plus one defense die. Right now, it is virtually impossible to block LOS.
-Swarm of the Marro was a great expansion but a terrible master set. ROTV should be master set one. Every 2-3 years come out with a similar type of master. That is, many different types of units which will form the basis for the next three or so waves.
-either junk the superhero master or go whole hog. One puny master doesn't cut it.
-differentiate sand, rock and grass more. They look different but are essentially the same.
-there was never enough tundra, water and roads produced. OTOH the amount of lava in the expansion set sufficed.
-I think melee units are a bit underpowered relative to their ranged brethren. Maybe add one more unit to each melee squad.
-I think a better marketing strategy and better ROTV art work could have drastically increased the penetration of this game. The art is good from an artistic standpoint but terrible from a "luring a prospective customer into buying it" perspective.
-did not like the exclusivity of the GenCon promos.
-have a hospital outreach program so that every newborn child gets a free master set.
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TedW wrote:
-change the line of sight rules so that a target that is partially blocked gets a plus one defense die. Right now, it is virtually impossible to block LOS.


This isn't true - you just need to design better maps.

Quote:
-Swarm of the Marro was a great expansion but a terrible master set. ROTV should be master set one. Every 2-3 years come out with a similar type of master. That is, many different types of units which will form the basis for the next three or so waves.


The problem here is that this would put the master sets into the $80 - $100 range. I don't know if people appreciate exactly how amazing the value of the RoV set was.

Quote:
-I think melee units are a bit underpowered relative to their ranged brethren. Maybe add one more unit to each melee squad.


Or use maps that are well-designed. This is almost entirely a map issue.

Quote:
-I think a better marketing strategy and better ROTV art work could have drastically increased the penetration of this game. The art is good from an artistic standpoint but terrible from a "luring a prospective customer into buying it" perspective.


Not if your prospective customer normally shops in the toy aisle at Wal-mart. Whether that was the right target market may be up for debate, but I'd be willing to bet that they sold far more sets in Wal-mart than they did in FLGSs.
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suPUR DUEper
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ScottB wrote:
TedW wrote:
-change the line of sight rules so that a target that is partially blocked gets a plus one defense die. Right now, it is virtually impossible to block LOS.


This isn't true - you just need to design better maps.


Ha! LOL. The trees from the Forgotten Forest aren't big enough and the foliage from the Ticalla Jungle are porous enough that they NEVER block LOS. [/q]

ScottB wrote:
Quote:
-Swarm of the Marro was a great expansion but a terrible master set. ROTV should be master set one. Every 2-3 years come out with a similar type of master. That is, many different types of units which will form the basis for the next three or so waves.


The problem here is that this would put the master sets into the $80 - $100 range. I don't know if people appreciate exactly how amazing the value of the RoV set was.


Why is that?

ScottB wrote:
Quote:
-I think melee units are a bit underpowered relative to their ranged brethren. Maybe add one more unit to each melee squad.


Or use maps that are well-designed. This is almost entirely a map issue.


Tell ya what, you bring your best melee squads, I'll bring the 4th Mass Line; we can play on flat terrain and we will see who wins.

ScottB wrote:
Quote:
-I think a better marketing strategy and better ROTV art work could have drastically increased the penetration of this game. The art is good from an artistic standpoint but terrible from a "luring a prospective customer into buying it" perspective.


Not if your prospective customer normally shops in the toy aisle at Wal-mart. Whether that was the right target market may be up for debate, but I'd be willing to bet that they sold far more sets in Wal-mart than they did in FLGSs.


I am thinking that a giant demonic looking Marro shooting green plasma is not going to entice a Wal-Mart mom to drop 40 bucks on something she knows nothing about.....

Also, I am not saying FLGS. Wal-Mart and Toys are Us was the place to be. The problem is the marketing plan did not do enough to create a sustainable brand.
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Michael Nerman
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The cards drive me crazy. You can't shuffle them and when they are stacked, they have a tendency to turn so they aren't all facing the same way. Bleah.

The fact that the different commanders had little effect on the game always bothered me. I'm not sure what the best solution to that is, though. Maybe units that can only be used in an army that only has the one commander.
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Alex Bourne
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TedW wrote:


-I think a better marketing strategy and better ROTV art work could have drastically increased the penetration of this game. The art is good from an artistic standpoint but terrible from a "luring a prospective customer into buying it" perspective.


I guess my problem with the cover was actually more of a marketing problem. Hasbro was definetly marketing the game to children. It's kind of a catch 22 though because I'm not sure Hasbro would have ever released heroscape had they realized that their primary market was not going to be children. That isn't to say that they didn't sell a lot of copies to children (being in Wal-Mart and ToysRUs they would have had to) they just never had a chance of creating sustainability in that market.

I agree that one of the great things about this game was the value and quality of the product. I don't know what ROTV was off the shelf (I'm guessing under $40), but they were only able to sell the product so cheap because they were able to mass produce it on a "Hasbro" level.

What price would this game have gone for had A smaller publisher released it?

Also how much would you have paid a smaller publisher for this game?

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I'll just enjoy what I have, and be glad I was ready when they did put it out originally. People can always say I wish this or that were different, but what they actually produced was remarkable. A wondrous and very special game system.
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It's still fun to discuss.
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Sphere wrote:
I'll just enjoy what I have, and be glad I was ready when they did put it out originally. People can always say I wish this or that were different, but what they actually produced was remarkable. A wondrous and very special game system.

You said it!

There was a time when expansions were still being turned out that I used to think every character of renowned in the universe belonged in Valkyrie. If Marvel figures then why not DC? Then I started imagining all the Star Trek characters from every series joining in. And, then why not all the action movie actors like Arnold Schwarzenegger, Jean Claude Van Damme, Steven Seagal? Oh... and Star Wars!! Why not Tarzan? Aliens? Predators? Everyone and everything....

Then Elmer Fudd hunting waskilly wabbits pops out from behind a cliff and gets pulverized by Chuck Norris. I knew there had to be a stop.

I'm glad Heroscape has come down to a closed system. It really is big enough now, and you can always add anything you like to suit yourself.

"You can't have everything. Where would you put it?" ninja
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TedW wrote:
ScottB wrote:
TedW wrote:
-change the line of sight rules so that a target that is partially blocked gets a plus one defense die. Right now, it is virtually impossible to block LOS.


This isn't true - you just need to design better maps.


Ha! LOL. The trees from the Forgotten Forest aren't big enough and the foliage from the Ticalla Jungle are porous enough that they NEVER block LOS.

ScottB wrote:
Quote:
-I think melee units are a bit underpowered relative to their ranged brethren. Maybe add one more unit to each melee squad.


Or use maps that are well-designed. This is almost entirely a map issue.


Tell ya what, you bring your best melee squads, I'll bring the 4th Mass Line; we can play on flat terrain and we will see who wins.


I beg to differ. Maps like these are a mess for ranged figures:




I wouldn't play you on a flat map. Flat maps are bad design. That's why I'm saying you need to play on better maps.


Quote:
ScottB wrote:
Quote:
-Swarm of the Marro was a great expansion but a terrible master set. ROTV should be master set one. Every 2-3 years come out with a similar type of master. That is, many different types of units which will form the basis for the next three or so waves.


The problem here is that this would put the master sets into the $80 - $100 range. I don't know if people appreciate exactly how amazing the value of the RoV set was.


Why is that?


Plastic is expensive. New sculpts are expensive. Shipping is expensive. There was a lot of discussion about this around the time that WotC switched over to using recycled D&D minis sculpts.
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Initial molds cost. But Hasbro has the factories to cover that, hence why they make so many minis intensive games. Molds wear out though. But as long as you keep the masters its not an issue.

Pressing costs isnt a problem as Hasbro tends to use the softer plastics. More rigid plastics cost a little more. But that is negligible. Were Games Workshop not run by idiots the minis would be on the shelves at prices possibly lower than Hasbros.

In fact Hasbro has stepped up its plastics productions and even has their own knock-off Lego sets now.

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I don't think I would do any major rules changes, because I think unless you wait like twenty years to do this you'd only be angering a very vocal group of players by rendering their collections obsolete.

I would think you could add rules by incorporating new terrain, glyphs, figure powers, etc...in much the way that Uncommon Heroes were added, or Treasure Glyphs, or Destructible Objects, and so on. New stuff enters the game without ruining the old.




That said, if this were just a total fantasy world where I could redesign the game from scratch and not worry about rebuying my old stuff, I'd want nice thick figure cards with original painted or comic-style artwork, not just figure photos. I'd probably change the part of the card with LOS stuff too...not really used that extensively I feel.

I'd also change some power wordings, make sure all errata were covered on the card, etc. Probably make Flying and Disengage into symbols instead of needing tons of text...maybe just those two powers though, nothing else...they are both common and wordy.
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ScottB wrote:
TedW wrote:
ScottB wrote:
[q="TedW"]-change the line of sight rules so that a target that is partially blocked gets a plus one defense die. Right now, it is virtually impossible to block LOS.


This isn't true - you just need to design better maps.


Ha! LOL. The trees from the Forgotten Forest aren't big enough and the foliage from the Ticalla Jungle are porous enough that they NEVER block LOS.

ScottB wrote:
Quote:
-I think melee units are a bit underpowered relative to their ranged brethren. Maybe add one more unit to each melee squad.


Or use maps that are well-designed. This is almost entirely a map issue.


Tell ya what, you bring your best melee squads, I'll bring the 4th Mass Line; we can play on flat terrain and we will see who wins.


ScottB wrote:
I beg to differ. Maps like these are a mess for ranged figures:


I wouldn't play you on a flat map. Flat maps are bad design. That's why I'm saying you need to play on better maps.



I would so play you on those maps. Height, restricted axis of attack, narrow front, water,range covers the whole map.... Shooters paradise.

Seriously, have you ever gone up against 3-5 squads of the 4th Mass?
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Ted & Scott...meet in Ohio (or some other mutual 'halfway' point) and duke it out. We'll look for the AAR.
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TedW wrote:
ScottB wrote:
I beg to differ. Maps like these are a mess for ranged figures:


I wouldn't play you on a flat map. Flat maps are bad design. That's why I'm saying you need to play on better maps.



I would so play you on those maps. Height, restricted axis of attack, narrow front, water,range covers the whole map.... Shooters paradise.

Seriously, have you ever gone up against 3-5 squads of the 4th Mass?


Well duh Sherlock! Of course a ranged unit is going to have a huge advantage vs a melee unit on flat terrain if the melee unit cant close very very fast or have overwhelming Zulu numbers and take apart the ranged units.

Whats next? Cave men vs B52 Bombers? Goldfish vs Hand grenade?

ahem... Start a new thread to debate it.

Back on topic.
I wonder if the tolerance levels needed for the tiles wasnt a problem? Yeah, they have some wiggle room there, but not a-lot. If they ever lost the masters it could be more trouble than its worth to re-create to those specs.

Also. From a different thread theres the eventual possibility with home 3d printing to some day make our own if the printers ever catch up to the requirements. Right now they dont. But given a few more years and it may be possible. All you'd need is one perfect 3d model of a tile.

What was Likto making for HeroScape that hot Hasbro irked enough to hit them with a C&D? (If what I heard was correct of course.)
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TedW wrote:
I am thinking that a giant demonic looking Marro shooting green plasma is not going to entice a Wal-Mart mom to drop 40 bucks on something she knows nothing about....


Depends on the kid:

"Mom, can we get this game? PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE...
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...EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE?"
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Petru5 wrote:
Ted & Scott...meet in Ohio (or some other mutual 'halfway' point) and duke it out. We'll look for the AAR.


Ohio is made of hills. No really. The hills have hills. And trees.

Minnesota is where they want to duke it out. Flat flat flat frozen desolate hell.
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TedW wrote:
I would so play you on those maps. Height, restricted axis of attack, narrow front, water,range covers the whole map.... Shooters paradise.

Seriously, have you ever gone up against 3-5 squads of the 4th Mass?

You should come to heroscapers and read up on map design. I think I might know a thing or two about it.
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Matches can be played online now via google docs. Check out the online section at heroscapers.com:

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/forumdisplay.php?f=108

(and BlackRoot is one of the online maps, so easy enough to test hoards of 4th Mass against melee)


4th vs melee is very much map dependent.

My hoard of 4th Mass lost to a hoard of Knights of Weston (w/Sir Gilbert) at GenCon last year in General Wars because the map wasn't flat, but reflective of the current BoV standard: centralized height in the middle of the map that you race towards. The map was Jotun's Gap.

The very next match, the Knights of Weston player goes up against the same 4th Mass build as mine and gets crushed -- and quickly -- because they were playing on Fossil, which is something the 4th Mass can grab height quickly on.

(and I was the overall General Wars champ two years ago...by playing the 4th Mass)




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