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Subject: Which game to choose? rss

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René Christensen
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I need some help here, guys.
I'm looking for a new game and has my eyes set on these:
Band of Brothers vs Lock 'n' Load.

But what to choose and why?

I have tried Squad Leader and loved it, but too many rules in the end.
I have bought CC:E, but can't really say I like it due to the cards.

This is posted at LnL too.
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Doug Adams
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I like BoB, very clean and the tactics seem solid - movement, fire superiority, and suppression. Haven't played with vehicles yet.
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Brian Berg Asklev Hansen
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Quote:
But what to choose and why?


Chose BoB if you highest priority is a VERY clean system that is simple and has few exceptions. The BoB rules are the most realistic I have seen and it plays out just like a WW2 tactical manual.
BoB has no leaders and can at times feel a bit repetitative in its play as it sometimes feel you are doing the same thing over and over, as its often obvious what the best move is in many situations.
BoB has only 1 (and soon 2) games in the series and no concrete plans of expanding out of WW2. But there is great support and I think we will eventually see a lot of games in the series.


Chose LnL if you like more details (especially regarding vehicles), and prefer more cinema-like drama than dry realism, as it has leaders and heroes with special skills. LnL has a very cool spotting system where units roll to spot enemies in non-clear terrain, and the turns feel more dynamic than BoB.
LnL has a rather unstructered rulebook that makes the game seem more complex than it actually is, and an (to me) annoying inconsistency of when to round fractions up and when to round down that makes it neccesary to skim the rules again if its been a long time since your last game.
LnL has a lot of games in the series and also has a lot of post-WW2 titles, and great support.
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Martí Cabré

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I agree with Brian.
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A.T. Selvaggio
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Yeah, I think Brian captured the differences quite well.
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Nathan James
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The big reason why you should choose Band of Brothers is so that I have a better chance of getting lots and lots of expansion packs for the system!
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René Christensen
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NJames wrote:
The big reason why you should choose Band of Brothers is so that I have a better chance of getting lots and lots of expansion packs for the system!

I don't get that?
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John Brady
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Lock 'n Load is a system that has modules covering WWII, Vietnam, The Falklands, a "what if" WWIII in Europe circa 1985, and Mogidishu. It's a great system, and well supported through LnL's in house magazine Line of Fire in terms of extra maps, scenarios, etc. I'd recommend it over Band of Brothers because of that. I'm not saying BoB isn't a very good game, it's just that at this point in time, you're comparing a one course dinner to a smorgasbord .

Of course, the downside to this is LnL could be *much* more harmful to your bank account if you really get into it...trust me on that. BTW, there is a free print and play BoH demo, with the v2 rules, available on the LnL website...you should grab it and see it you like it. It has the dreaded "chicken wire" map, though, so be prepared. (To this day, I STILL can't comprehend that anyone could think that was good idea). The new version uses the non chicken wire maps.

All thinks considered, I think LnL has the best looking maps of any squad level game out there. Here's a sample:




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Daniel
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I like Band Of Brothers the best out of the tactical games I have tried (ASLSK, CoH:SoS). It seems to have the most streamlined rules that allow the most realistic tactics to pan out (fire, suppress, maneuver). I didn't want to have the game be card-driven (though Combat Commander always looks tempting to me). There aren't as many details to get lost in (you just have different models of tanks, and generic MG and Mortar teams), but the tradeoff is that it is more abstracted (if you are an ASL junkie this could make the game seem too simplistic).

The Pros to me are:

The operations range seems to model relative command strength of two opposing forces in an engagement and minimize downtime since one person will move 3-4 units and then the other person will move a handful of theirs.

The Suppression/Morale mechanics seem to realistically portray what WWII tactics were really like. There is no giant kill stacks that get their FP ridiculously high to blast an opponents kill stack out of the building down the street into oblivion. You have to lay down suppressing fire, close in, and finish them off in close.

Easy to teach, easy to learn. Very few pages (though the rules could be a little more clear in places). The game presents a system for infantry, guns, weapons teams, and tanks in a very short amount of rulebook space.


I'm sure there's a lot more that I could think of. But, basically, BoB is where it's at for me. I am really hoping this system expands and we get tons of boards, scenarios, armies and a random scenario generator.
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Nathan James
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Slotracer wrote:
NJames wrote:
The big reason why you should choose Band of Brothers is so that I have a better chance of getting lots and lots of expansion packs for the system!

I don't get that?

The more people buy BoB and love it, the more market there will be for expansions. I would very much like to see Commonwealth, US regular infantry, Italians, etc.

But I was making a joke- you should buy it, so that I will receive some small benefit.

The reason that I bought it was that it does exactly what I wanted a tactical game to do. The design philosophy is one of achieving realism and playability by clever and consistent abstraction. Are US squads, German squads and Russian squads all different? You betcha. Is the difference between armored fighting vehicles well-considered and effectively represented? Absolutely. Can tanks do ridiculous things like fire their MG at non-threatening squads from 600 yards whilst simulataneously being locked in a deadly struggle against enemy tanks at 200 yards? No. Does it take a couple extra rules to prevent this? No. Not at all, it is done by appropriate abstraction.

The "Why Band of Brothers" article in the file section goes into detail about the philosophy. But I'll just say that the result of the philosophy is a serious wargame that will teach you about WWII tactical realities, and can be enjoyably played inside an hour.
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Kyle Mann
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I've never played LNL so I can't speak to it, but I'm sure it's a fine choice based on its rating & rank. I'm not a wargamer by any means, having only really played BoB:SE, Memoir 44 and one game of 1812: The Invasion of Canada. However, I love the Band of Brothers TV show and I've worn out a copy of Ambrose's book, so I've a rudimentary layman's understanding of how WW2 squad tactics were executed on the Western Front.

You know that episode of Band of Brothers where Winters & Co. smartly lay down a base of fire and execute flanking maneuvers in order to oust the Germans at Brécourt Manor? What is incredible is how Screaming Eagles elegantly forces such tactical play. Taking potshots at a distance is very unlikely to eliminate or reduce an enemy force in BoB; instead, players must first suppress the enemy, then move in for the kill.

When a unit is suppressed, it is far less likely to be able to return fire, maneuver, or execute any number of actions. A fully suppressed unit (occurring when it takes very heavy fire or takes fire from multiple units) has a very, very slim chance of being able to move, and certain tasks like running & gunning are literally impossible for it to carry out.

The implication of this is that while charging gung-ho through the open towards a full-strength, unsuppressed unit is generally suicide (as I quickly learned in Scenario 1), smartly suppressing, surrounding, and then close assaulting a unit works brilliantly, just as it did in World War II--and all of this without a tome of rules and very few exceptions. While learning this game, these tactics simply naturally emerge from the players without their being forced upon you. It's really something.
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Jim Krohn
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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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Kyle, that is music to my ears.

That was my goal all along in the design. I wanted the *system* more than the rules to reward and encourage WW2 tactics - how you attack, how you set up your men, do you stack, etc.
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René Christensen
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I have now ordered Band of Brothers.
Why?
Due to only 16 pages of rules and there is no expansion to empty my wallet.


Thank you for all your advices.
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Jim Krohn
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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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Good choice.

Actually it is only like 10 pages of rules. The rest are designer notes.
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A.T. Selvaggio
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Slotracer wrote:
I have now ordered Band of Brothers.
Why?
Due to only 16 pages of rules and there is no expansion to empty my wallet.


Thank you for all your advices.


Congratulations! You will not regret it. This game really hits the sweet spot in space. A Goldilocks type of game. Just right. Now go and preorder Ghost Panzer while you can!

Jim - any target for release?
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Jim Krohn
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March was the hope, but that is looking less likely as I have not seen updated proofs yet.

 
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Daniel
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Jim Krohn wrote:
March was the hope, but that is looking less likely as I have not seen updated proofs yet.



angry
 
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Daniel
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Slotracer wrote:
I have now ordered Band of Brothers.
Why?
Due to only 16 pages of rules and there is no expansion to empty my wallet.


Thank you for all your advices.


Let me know if you are interested in playing over vassal. More that happy to play some teaching games too.
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René Christensen
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atsgamer wrote:
Now go and preorder Ghost Panzer while you can!

Jim - any target for release?


Isn't Ghost Panzer a stand alone game?
I used to go all in, when I have bought a new game and had to get all the expansions before I ever tried the basic game. I'm not going to make that same mistake.
I've got Tide of Iron (never played!) and Combat Commaner: Europe (played once!) and I just can't seem to get a hang on the rules.
So I do hope that BoB: SE will be much easier to get into.
I have watched most of the videos and already feel I know the rules.
 
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René Christensen
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dandechino wrote:

Let me know if you are interested in playing over vassal. More that happy to play some teaching games too.

Absoultely, but what about the time difference? snore
Do I need a headset with microphone?
 
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Daniel
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Slotracer wrote:
dandechino wrote:

Let me know if you are interested in playing over vassal. More that happy to play some teaching games too.

Absoultely, but what about the time difference? snore
Do I need a headset with microphone?


Oh my, I didn't notice your flag! I usually just use the chat window in the module.
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Kyle Mann
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Curse your sudden but inevitable action denial!
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I find gaming with Europeans online works best in early afternoon (Dan I know you're home sometimes by then), or on the weekends.
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René Christensen
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The game came today.
The chits are sorted in two trays.
One from US and one for German units.
Fits the box perfectly.
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