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Battle Cry: 150th Civil War Anniversary Edition» Forums » Rules

Subject: Leadership rss

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Ian Johnstone
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Leadership question.

A General alone in a hex is ordered with the Leadership card and moves and attaches to an Artillery unit. Does the Artillery unit get to fight with an additional die this turn or does the General have to be attached to a unit before the Leadership card is played?
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Mayor Jim
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...umm..I believe that it is BEFORE...he needs to start with the unit...
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Bill Bennett
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The general has to be attached to the artillery unit at the start of the turn, or it cannot be ordered to battle at all. I remember that this was not clear in the original version's card text, but I thought they had improved the text on the new version to make this clearer.
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Ian Johnstone
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LEADERSHIP

Issue 1 order to each of your generals. If an ordered general is attached to a unit, that unit is also ordered as long as the general stays with the unit this turn. Each of your infantry or cavalry units with an attached general rolls 1 additional die when battling this turn.

If you don't have any generals, instead issue 1 order to a unit of your choice in any section.
 
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Dave C
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vorpal_Cortex wrote:
LEADERSHIP

Issue 1 order to each of your generals. If an ordered general is attached to a unit, that unit is also ordered as long as the general stays with the unit this turn. Each of your infantry or cavalry units with an attached general rolls 1 additional die when battling this turn.

If you don't have any generals, instead issue 1 order to a unit of your choice in any section.


Yeah.. that's the words.. and Bill gave the right answer.

If you have a general and give him an order you can move him and the unit he is attached to and benefit from the card's bonus die... though... if the General was attached to an artillery unit, both the General and the artillery unit must remain stationary for the artillery unity to be allowed to attack.. the attack would be made with an extra die.
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Ian Johnstone
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I appreciate the quick replies.

Thanks everyone.
 
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Eat2surf wrote:
vorpal_Cortex wrote:
LEADERSHIP

Issue 1 order to each of your generals. If an ordered general is attached to a unit, that unit is also ordered as long as the general stays with the unit this turn. Each of your infantry or cavalry units with an attached general rolls 1 additional die when battling this turn.

If you don't have any generals, instead issue 1 order to a unit of your choice in any section.


Yeah.. that's the words.. and Bill gave the right answer.

If you have a general and give him an order you can move him and the unit he is attached to and benefit from the card's bonus die... though... if the General was attached to an artillery unit, both the General and the artillery unit must remain stationary for the artillery unity to be allowed to attack.. the attack would be made with an extra die.


By the the text on the card, the bonus doesn't apply to Artillery units. Only Infantry and Cavalry units.
 
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Martin S
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Makes sense. The Leader is boosting morale etc. in combat, which doesn't really apply to cannon balls.
 
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Ian Johnstone
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You're right. I overlooked that the card states each of your infantry or cavalry units with an attached general rolls 1 additional die when battling this turn.

Thanks for pointing that out.
 
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Ian Johnstone
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I found this on the WotC site

Leadership -- Does this card allow a general to move and attach to a unit, or does it only apply to generals that are already attached when the card is played?
The wording on this card is unclear. Here’s how it works. Every general receives an order, whether he is attached or not. If the general was not attached, he can move to a unit and become attached. If the general was already attached, the unit can move with the general. In either case, attached infantry and cavalry units can battle and use two extra dice (one for the general and one for the Leadership card). Attached artillery can use one extra die (for the Leadership card).

Leadership -- Does this card override the normal restriction against attaching a general to an artillery unit?
There is no restriction against attaching a general to an artillery unit. Players are free to attach generals to artillery units if they choose. The restriction is only that an attached general does not increase the artillery unit’s battle dice. The Leadership card doesn't really lift this restriction, but it does allow the artillery unit to attack with one bonus battle die if it has a general attached. The extra die is for the card, not the general, but the general must be there in order to claim the card's bonus.

Edited to get the link formatted correctly.
 
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Ian Johnstone
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Looks like its a complete butchering of a classic card from the original Avalon Hill version. Way to go WotC.

The Avalon Hill version of the card states:

Leadership

Issue an order to all of your generals to move. If a general is attached to a unit, the unit may move and attack with the general.

Any attacking unit(s) with an attached General may roll 2 extra battle dice instead of the usual 1


The Avalon Hill version of the rules state:

Generals in Battle

An infantry or cavalry with an attached general may roll 1 additional die when the unit battles. A general does not add 1 battle die when attached to an artillery unit.


I think the intent of the Leadership card was to give any unit with an attached General an additional battle die.
 
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I thought the 150th Anniversary edition rules dropped the bonus battle die for units with attached Generals and reworded the Leadership card to apply the bonus die only to infantry and cavalry. This evening I'll compare and contrast the the rules and cards between the two editions.

Remember that we're talking about the 150th anniversary edition of the game here. There is a dedicated FAQ for the 150th Anniversary of the game in the Files section. I think the FAQ on the WotC site refers to the 2000 edition of the game. The link at the bottom of the WotC FAQ takes you to a PDF of the 2000 rules. There is also a separate BGG entry for the 2000 edition.

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Ian Johnstone
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Brady, you are correct. I just had to go back and look at the old version of the Leadership card to see if it made any more sense than the wording on the new card.

After looking at the old version of the card and the old rules for Generals attached to units, I can see why the new Leadership card is worded the way that it is.

The new Leadership card adds back 'in' the old attached "Generals in Battle" rule - infantry and cavalry with an attached General battle with an additional die.

If we use the old FAQ as a guide, every General receives an order, whether he is attached or not. If the General was not attached, he can move to a infantry, cavalry or artillery unit and become attached. In this case, attached infantry and cavalry battle with an additional die and artillery may battle normally. If the General was already attached, the infantry and cavalry units may move and battle with an additional die. Attached artillery may move or battle normally.
 
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Hmm. I agree that the wording is a little ambiguous on the new Leadership card, but I think that a General has to start the turn already attached to a unit for it to be ordered with the General and be eligible to battle on that turn—just as Bill said abaove. I don't think a lone General can move to an unordered unit, attach to it, and _then_ order the unit to battle during Battle in the same turn under the play of Leadership.

The current FAQ admittedly does not address your question. It's a good one to pin down one way or the other and put in an updated FAQ.

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UPDATE: At this point, it's probably overkill on the Leadership Card question, but I sent a note to Richard Borg asking if he could clarify and give an answer to Ian's question directly, if only to have it for an updated BC:150 FAQ. With Richard's permission, I'm reposting his answer here:

Quote:
Leadership question.

A General alone in a hex is ordered with the Leadership card and moves and attaches to an Artillery unit. Does the Artillery unit get to fight with an additional die this turn or does the General have to be attached to a unit before the Leadership card is played?


(RB) First a general that moves to a unit does not order the unit.
Second an artillery unit with a general does not get the benefit of an additional die in battle on a Leadership card.
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Bill Bennett
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Sadly, it seems the new (BC150) Leadership card version still does not make it entirely clear that a general must be attached to a unit at the start of the turn to be able to order the unit. As Brady says, that's another one for the FAQ.
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Ian Johnstone
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Thanks for checking with Richard Borg. It's great to be able to hear it from the designer. It makes me wonder if the Avalon Hill Battle Cry FAQ is wrong regarding Leadership because the FAQ there does specifically mention of being able to move an unattached General to a unit (via Leadership) and become attached to the unit and then battle with the same unit.
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I agree, it's always good to hear from the designer. Sometimes Richard Borg does enter into these conversations, but I went ahead and asked.

I think part of Richard's answer refers to a rule about attached generals on page 9: "A general may move from an attached unit to another, but the unit it attaches to is not automatically ordered." Also, I think the past tense wording on the Leadership card is supposed to make it clear that the general needs to be attached to a unit at the start of the turn for it to be eligible to battle later on.

Again, I think the FAQ on the WotC site refers to the earlier (2000) edition rules of the game. When the FAQ is read from that perspective, the answers make more sense and there's no conflict. The new edition rules are similar to the old, but there really are some subtle changes that make reliance on the earlier rules and FAQs problematic at times.

For example, in the earlier edition of the game, you could move unit away from an attached general for the cost of one order. Under the new BC:150 rules, you can't unless you spend two orders—one for the unit to move and another for the General to detach from the unit and remain in the hex:

Quote:
2000 Rules, Attached Generals: "If a unit with an attached general is given an order, the general may move with the unit, or the general may stay in place. This counts as one order. A general which moves with a unit must move to the same hex. Exception: You may not move an attached general who has already moved this turn.

Quote:
BC:150 Rules, Attached Generals: "If a unit with an attached general is given an order, the general must move with the unit to the same hex. The movement of the unit and attached general only counts as one order."

Under the old rules, a lone general could not move through a friendly unit—it had to attach to it if no other general was there already. Under the new rules, you can move a lone general through a friendly unit whether it has an attached general or not. Lone generals can pass through the hex of another lone, friendly general under the new rules, too. A more obvious difference: you had Building Hexes in the old game. In the new game, there are no Building Hexes, but Towns and Homesteads instead.

All these little changes—among others that can be found—make for a different game from the earlier one.

Now, why WotC refers to the earlier game rather than the new game is beyond me. But at least their FAQ and the link to the old rules are consistent with one another.

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