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Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: mad carthos and ghost armor. rss

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it's Timmy
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Mad carthos' hero ability says once per turn, when using a skill that costs 1 fatigue it will cost zero fatigue instead. Since it says turn( not round) could he then use the first ghost armor when attacked for free even if he used his ability on his own turn?
 
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Graham Martin
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yarritstimmy wrote:
Mad carthos' hero ability says once per turn, when using a skill that costs 1 fatigue it will cost zero fatigue instead. Since it says turn( not round) could he then use the first ghost armor when attacked for free even if he used his ability on his own turn?



Well, first:
Rule Book, page 7 wrote:
A round consists of each player taking one turn...


Also for reference, hero text: http://www.descentinthedark.com/2nd/tag/mad-carthos/

My reading is not only that you can do this on both your turn and on the OL's turn, you can do it on every player's turn for any skill that costs 1 fatigue, if if the mechanics allow for it.
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Bert McCloud
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I might be missing something but when would you need to use ghost armor when it's not the OL turn? Ghost armor applies when you are attacked and roll defense dice. I can't think of a scenario when you might need to use that when it's not the overlord's turn.
 
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Rafal Areinu
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The question is not "can I use first ghost armor for free during OL's turn if I used ghost armor for free during my turn"

It's "can I use first ghost armor for free during OL's turn if I used any skill for free during my turn", and there are many skills he might have used for free during his turn.
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Bert McCloud
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Areinu wrote:
The question is not "can I use first ghost armor for free during OL's turn if I used ghost armor for free during my turn"

It's "can I use first ghost armor for free during OL's turn if I used any skill for free during my turn", and there are many skills he might have used for free during his turn.


Oh I see, my mistake, I read the question badly.

In that case, I don't see why not, each player takes a turn and then OL takes a turn. Since it says once per turn, if you somehow get to use skills on another players turn then I don't see why the ability wouldn't work on each of those turns.
 
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Darren Nakamura
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I think that this may be another case where the rules as written and the rules as intended aren't entirely in sync with each other.

I had always interpreted Mad Carthos's Hero Ability to mean "once per your turn," as in, "you can do this once between the moment when you begin a turn and the moment when you begin your following turn."

As written, with the paragraph under "Playing the game" on Page 7 of the rule book, it would allow Mad Carthos use a skill on his turn without spending Fatigue (Exploding Rune, for instance), and then later use Ghost Armor on the Overlord's turn without spending a Fatigue.
 
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Graham Martin
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Dexter345 wrote:

I had always interpreted Mad Carthos's Hero Ability to mean "once per your turn," as in, "you can do this once between the moment when you begin a turn and the moment when you begin your following turn."


Why? That is not what is says in plain black and white. This sound slike a case of RAIARTBSTMBWIR. ("Rules as I always read them before so that must be what is right.")

Quote:
As written, with the paragraph under "Playing the game" on Page 7 of the rule book, it would allow Mad Carthos use a skill on his turn without spending Fatigue (Exploding Rune, for instance), and then later use Ghost Armor on the Overlord's turn without spending a Fatigue.


Correct. Other skills, rules, or crads say "once per round." This one does not.
 
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Darren Nakamura
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I conceded in my post that by the rules as written, Mad Carthos would be allowed to do that thing. I never said that the way I interpreted the rules must be what is right.

I am curious though. Which other skills and cards say "once per round"? A lot of skills say "exhaust this card," which effectively means you can only do it once per round. However, this would not work for Mad Carthos's Hero Ability, because you don't ever exhaust a Hero Sheet.
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Rafal Areinu
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Well, it kind of would make more sense to have "once per round" if they wanted it to work like that. Why would Mad Carthos be able to use this ability only on his turn? Doesn't make sense.

Also Sir Valadir has this wording:
http://www.descentinthedark.com/2nd/category/heroes/page/5/
so we could assume that if he attacks during OL's turn(counterattack) or during other players turn(some ability?) he can add surge to his attack roll.

Both abilities are very similar, and all other abilities that state "your turn" are things that... can be done only during "your turn", like Syndrael's healing of fatigue.

http://www.descentinthedark.com/2nd/astarra/
If Astarra got movement point during someone elses turn she could probably spent them for teleport(for example if syndrael uses her heroic feat on Astarra).

And finally Arvel:
http://www.descentinthedark.com/2nd/arvel-worldwalker/
Once per round.
 
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E.M. Proc
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Does it seem to anyone else that the CK heroes and monsters were thrown together and not really play-tested very well? Looking at the CK stuff, it just seems relatively last-second to prevent people complaining about no cross-over from 1e...
 
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Darren Nakamura
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Just to be clear, I'm not saying that I think Mad Carthos's ability was meant to only work ON his turn, but that I think it was meant to only work once per every time his turn comes around, or in other words, once per round. That's what I meant when I said I interpreted it as "once per your turn."

Astarra is another example of why I don't necessarily think that "once per turn" was intended to mean exactly that. Are we saying that we think Astarra should be able to use that ability five times in a round? Is that even possible (can she save movement points to use on other turns)?

My hypothesis (and I'm using that word with the implication that there is a very real chance that I'm completely wrong) is that Astarra's, Carthos's, and Valadir's Hero Abilities were written while only considering their use during the hero's turn, as most of the time they would be invoked would be then. Arvel's Hero Ability, however, is just as likely to be invoked on the Overlord turn as it is on the hero's turn.

Now, Carthos with Ghost Armor or Valadir with Counter Attack throw a wrench into it, and I would not be surprised if that is an oversight in the language, where they had intended to mean "once per round" while they wrote "once per turn."

However, as written, Carthos could invoke his Hero Ability on his turn, then again on the Overlord's turn with Ghost Armor.
 
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Rafal Areinu
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Yeah, they used all possible combinations between heroes, so it's hard to argue towards RAI. We would have to get an answer from FFG to be sure, and I'll be the one to ask.

You cannot save movement points between turns, from Adam Sez:
Quote:
Q: Can Wildlander's skills 'Running Shot' and 'First Strike' be combined? Can he move at all and when exactly (during Overlord's turn)?
Can excessive movement points be carried from turn to turn?

A: Yes, a Wildlander can use Running Shot and First Strike together. When used with First Strike, the Wildlander must spend the movement points during the overlord's turn.
Movement points cannot be carried from turn to turn.


One argument towards vague wording and possible intention to limit it to "once per round" would be wording in Syndrael.

"If you don't move during this turn, you recover 2 fatigue at the end of your turn"
One would argue that each turn is "this turn" when it's going on so during all turns that aren't syndrael's regeneration of fatigue would accumulate and at the end of syndrael's turn she would get all the fatigue back no matter if she moved or not.

Obviously that's wrong and only some crazy rule abuser would try to put that argument into motion.
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Graham Martin
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Dexter345 wrote:
Which other skills and cards say "once per round"?


Divine Fury: http://www.descentinthedark.com/2nd/tag/divine-fury/

Jonas the Kind: http://www.descentinthedark.com/2nd/tag/jonas-the-kind/

Widow Tarha: http://www.descentinthedark.com/2nd/widow-tarha/

Arvel Worldwalker: http://www.descentinthedark.com/2nd/tag/arvel-worldwalker/

Grey Ker: http://www.descentinthedark.com/2nd/grey-ker/

Hugo the Glorious: http://www.descentinthedark.com/2nd/hugo-the-glorious/

Edit: Obviously, some don't say "Once per round" but them all speak in terms of "rounds" as opposed to "turns."





 
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Rafal Areinu
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I got an answer from Justin:

Rule Question:
Mad carthos' hero ability says once per turn, when using a skill that costs 1 fatigue it will cost zero fatigue instead. It doesn't say "per round", it doesn't specify whose turn it should be. Does that mean I could possibly use 1 fatigue skill on my turn, then on each of other 3 heroes' turns, and on overlord's turn, each time for free?

This also affects Sir Valadir and Astarra.

Can Sir Valadir use his ability on his turn, then on overlord's turn if Sir Valadir counterattacks? Can Astarra use her ability to "teleport" with move action granted by Syndrael's feat, on Syndrael's turn, then "teleport" again on Astarra's turn?

Quote:
Hey Rafal,

It does indeed say per turn and not per round. Each hero has a turn, and the overlord has a turn, so these abilities, by the rules currently written, are allowed to be used each turn.


By the rules currently written, heh, heh
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E.M. Proc
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Sticking with Mad Carthos a moment, it seems like there's some 'excitement' about getting to use it once per turn, which means (in a full game) five times per round...

But as far as I know, there aren't any mage skills that can be used on another hero's turn anyway... So at most you'd be talking about once on Mad Carthos' turn and once on the OL's turn...
 
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Darren Nakamura
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emproc1346 wrote:
Sticking with Mad Carthos a moment, it seems like there's some 'excitement' about getting to use it once per turn, which means (in a full game) five times per round...

But as far as I know, there aren't any mage skills that can be used on another hero's turn anyway... So at most you'd be talking about once on Mad Carthos' turn and once on the OL's turn...


Yeah, and you'd have to get Ghost Armor, which is so not my favorite way to spend Runemaster XP.
 
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Rafal Areinu
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Yeah, and I don't think Geomancer and Runemaster have anything applicable as well. And now they know about the issue so they won't make new mage class that would have something too powerful to combo with this ability
 
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