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Subject: The list of my rule changes that you can chose from rss

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Steve
Thailand
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I intend to add to this list from time to time. I'll add a "reply" to let you know each time.

Set up and before the game starts, including Order of Battle changes.
1] Optionally, add generic DDs. No need for search baord counters, just have enough for the largest TF you'll have. This allows the IJN Trans pieces added below to be escorted by DD, as they were and adds a few weak AA ships.
. . a] For each 2 DD in a TF add 1 DD counter, it's worth 2-1.
. . b] The US can instead, for each 3 DD add 1 DD counter, it's worth 3-2. The IJN can also, but he can never have more than 1 such DD counter per TF.
2] The IJN can add ships. All are possible.
. . a] The Zuikaku with 5 F, 5 D, & 5 T [but can hold tot. of 21 PF] and 1 CA Myogo class. Would be added to another arriving TF.
. . b] Ryujo and Junyo with 2 Atago class CA and 1 Myogo class CA and 6 DD.
. . c] 4 old BB, 2 CL, and 6 DD.
. . d] New Trans pieces and a CL & 10 DD as escorts.
3] The US can add ships.
. . a] Saratoga, CLAA, CA 4 DD.
. . b] Almost possible -- Wasp, 2 new BB, 2 CL [5-3] and 4 DD. These BB were finished, but the engines needed tweeking. Wasp & CLs were done.
. . c] Totally possible -- 4 - 6 old slow BB, 1 CA, 1 CL and 4 DD.

Moving.
1] Ships had different speeds. Extra speed in even numbered turns.
. . a] Most ships move 2 per turn. Kaga, IJN CVL, Yamato, Mutsu, Nagato, 4 old IJN BB,
. . b] Some ships can move 2 every turn; and 3 every other turn. Max. of 4 moves of 3 per game. All CA, CL, most CV, DD, Kongo class BB,
. . c] Old US BB can move 1 every turn; and 2 every other turn. No limit.
. . d] Transports [= AP] can move 1 per turn. Optionally move like old US BB.
2] Optionally, mostly ships and planes can't move 2 diagonally consecutively in the same turn. They move 2 straight or like a knight [1 diagonally & 1 straight] or 1 diagonally, 1 straight then turn and 1 straight [this equals 2 diagonally and requires a movement of 3].
3] Split the 2 night turns into 4 night turns. The 0500 turn each day is an "odd" turn.

Searching.
1] A much better search method that is double blind, but only for honest players is this,
. . a] Use a second search board, and 2 sided counters. Each counter is blank or says "Contact!" on the bottom. Each player places one of his color blank counter face down in each area on the board next to the other player's, (so 63 blank counters each plus enough Contact! counters each to have 1 for each independent group of ships you will ever have on the board).
. . b] After you move, both players replace his blank counter in each area that contains his ships with a counter that says "Contact!".
. . c] The Japanese player searches the areas of the board where he can search by looking under the US counters to see if any say Contact. If they do, he leaves face up any 'Contact!' markers he discovers, leaves face down all the blanks. The US player repeats, looking under the IJN counters.
. . d] After both are finished, you note every area with a "Contact!" counter and return to the main boards to resolve each contact.
. . e] At the end of the turn before you tell him where your attackks came from both players can search again. This time you just found him, then start the next turn.
. . f] Instead of always telling where the attack came from, you roll a die, on a roll of 1 or 2 you must tell. This is either because a captured pilot blabbed, a plane followed them back, a sub sighted them and reported or a search plane found them.


2] the US can use 10 PBY searches per day, that each {PBY} search can search 2 adjacent areas,
. . a] All air searches can search 2 areas, but at 2 different times. If you find 2 different searches too confusing or time consuming, increase the number of searches a lot, close to double.
. . b] 1 area is searched in the regular search phase,
. . c] the other is "searched" just before you tell him where you are because you attacked him.
3] The IJN float plane "Jakes" can search the same way with a limit of 2 per turn out to 4 areas, [there were Jakes on Tone & Chichuma, the CVS, and the 4 Mogami class CA] and
4] US Ds & IJN Ts can search 2 areas [1 closer and 1 further or 1 further and 1 closer] up to 2 areas from their CV in the same way.
. . a] These search planes need to have been ready during the last turn and set aside [or you can place them on the board 1 area out]. After they search they land and ready, and are ready to strike in the next turn or they land, ready, and wait during next turn before they can search again [or are placed 1 area out].
. . b] Optionally, SBDs can search 3 areas out and Kates 4 areas out.
. . c] But, it takes them 2 or 3 turns plus 1 to ready. 1st turn flying [or 1st 2 flying after being placed 1 area out], next turn search 2 areas, and last turn return and readying.
5] Also 1 IJN search [2 areas] per turn and 2 per day by Mavis & Emily flying boats from the Marshall islands.
6] PBY and B-17 searches can't search Column A in the 1st turn of every day, it takes time to fly all the way out there and they can't leave too early or they can't search while they get there.
7] The US optionally can use their B-17 to search. 6 B-17 searches per day.

8] All of the row of areas #1 and the west-most 3 areas of row #7 are unsearchable before 1300 6/4. US ships can't enter these areas and IJN can't attack from or base an air search from these areas, during this time. Optionally, add area A-4.

Air strikes.
1] Optonally, planes have different ranges.
. . a] US Ts and the IJN Ts on the Hosho = 14.
. . . Most strikes fly and attack in 1 turn and fly fly back, land, and ready in the next, but we let them land at the end of the turn they attack because it is easier to keep track of things that way. Then they ready the next turn.
. . b] US Fs = 18.
. . c] US Ds and most IJN T, D, & F = 20.
. . d] Flights of 18 or more take longer. 1st turn to fly, 2nd turn to attack and start back, 3rd turn to land and ready. So now, these planes land at the end of the 2nd turn and ready during the 3rd.

On the Battle Board.
1] BB, DD (if added), and IJN CL are worth 2, instead of 1, when they are attacked by bombers that can't be engaged by any AA or FTR. The maximum loss by a group of bombers that is unopposed is 1 "squadron". BB have armor and CL & DD can dodge bombs & torpedoes.
2] Ftr are worth 2 or 3 AA factors on the Battle Board.
3] In the Ftr vs Ftr fight, excess loses over the number of escorting Ftrs are taken from the bombers. An equal number of additional bombers are optionally aborted. If the escorts shoot down more planes than the defender has engaging them, the excess loses are CAP Ftr that were withheld for the battle board and are now aborted, but not shot down.
4] Some way needs to be found to reduce losses from AA and increase losses from Ftrs. And scale Hits and Losses for the size of the battle. these are just 2 ideas.
. . a] Hits
. . . .i] If 1 - 2 PF of bombers, roll 1 die for each "Hit", it becomes a miss 50% and is a hit 50%.
. . . ii] If 3 - 4 PF, roll 1 die for each "Hit", it becomes a miss 17% and is a hit 83%.
. .. iii] If 5 - 7 PF, as before.
. . . iv] If 8 - 11 PF, add 1 hit.
. . . .v] If 12+ add 1 hit per 4 PF of bombers more than 11.
. . b] Losses
. . . .i] If 1 - 2 PF of bombers, roll 1 die for each "Loss", it becomes a miss 67% and is a Loss 33%.
. . . ii] If 3 - 4 PF, roll 1 die for each "Loss", it becomes a miss 50% and is a hit 50%.
. .. iii] If 5 - 7 PF, roll 1 die for each "Loss", it becomes a miss 33% and is a hit 67%.
. . . iv] If 8 - 11 PF, as before.
. . . .v] If 12+ add 1 "Loss" per 4 PF of bombers more than 11.
. . c] Additional loses from CAP Ftrs.
. . . .i] In addition to being x2 or x3, each Ftr PF shoots down 1 PF of bombers of the group it is opposing.

I'm looking at a new combat system that uses "Buckets of Dice" instead of CRTs.

How to "reduce" and invade Midway.
1] Each turn that they bombard, BB reduce Midway by 2 points and CA by 1. But, no ship can bombard for more that 2 turns.
2] Optionally, use AP instead of the Atago for the invasion forces. Then add another IJN CL and 10 DD to escort the Trans.

How to win and handicapping.
. . A] Ships are not sunk when they have all their hit boxes hit, they are crippled then instead.
. . . . 1] Crippled ships give their normal VPs to the other side, if they are sunk they give double VPs.
. . . . 2] Crippled ships can move 1 sq. in each even numbered turn.
. . . . 3] Crippled ships have no AA strength, or surface strength attacking. They defend normally. CVs can't launch or recover planes and 5 squadrons on board are elim.
. . . . 4] Crippled ships can be attacked more. Mark out their hit boxes again.
. . . . . . a] There are submarines lurking about pretty much anywhere. Each day at 1700 hrs and at the end of the game crippled ships still on the map are attacked by a sub. It will score 3 torpedo hits on a roll of 1 or 2.
. . B] VPs are awarded for planes shot down. Note how many each side has in its OOB and reduce this amount for planes that are still whole at the end, the result is the number of planes and air crew lost. For each (about) 6 for US and 3 for the IJN planes lost award 1 VP to the enemy. This is more for the air crew than the plane, and the IJN found it much harder to replace pilots.
. . C] If you start to change the arrival times of ships or add/take-away ships, you should think about handicap points.
. . . . 1] I suggest you start with the VP value of the ship, but CVs are x 3 [Hosho is just x 2, because it has no Ftrs].
. . . . 2] This value is reduced by 20% for each half day the ship is re-timed to arrive. When ships are moved, calculate the value at the 2 times and subtract the original time's value from the new time's value. Groups of ships traded/moved as 1 can be calculated all together.
. . . . 3] This will be negative if the ship arrives earlier.

[For example, if the North Caroline is added. It arrives at 0700 6/4, so 2 half day from the start. It's worth 10 VP. So, 10 x .8 x.8 = 6.4 rounds to 6. So, adding/getting this BB will cost you -6 HP.

Or, if in the original game the Yamato is traded to arrive at 0500 6/3, it is changed 1.5 Days. So, 10 x .8 x.8 x .8 = 5.12 => 5. So getting it early will cost you -5 HP that become VP
.]

.
Using historical arrival times [meaning all the IJN TFs arrive much earlier] will give the IJN a bunch of -HP that become +VP for the US. My claim is that this [SEAT OF MY PANTS] estimate is a good place to start. It will need fine tuning.

For example, moving the whole Yamato group to 1300 6/3 is 1 day earlier. The whole group is worth 10+8+8+2+(4x2)= 36 VP. So, to move it 2 hald days earlier is -- 36 x.8 x .8 = 23.04 => 23. So, 23 [for old time] - 36 [for new time]= -13. This move should give the US +13 VP or IJN -13 HP.
Moving the whole Kongo group to 0900 6/3 is 1/2 day earlier. The whole group is worth 6+6+4+3+3+3+2+(4x3)= 39 VP; 39 x.8 = 31.2 => 31. So, 31 [for new time] - 39 [for old time]= -8. This move should give the US +8 VP or IJN -8 HP
.

Please remember that I still need to adjust the Victory Points scheme to make the game even. I especially need to change the points for taking/holding Midway. I see no point in doing this hour by hour. When the island falls does not matter, only if it is taken matters. And the Transports that I want to use are slower than the Atago and so will arrive later, if at all.
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Glenn McMaster
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I think the principle to keep an eye on is simplicity and speed of play. The 'original' Midway rulebook is about 3,500 or 4,000 words, all in. If upgrading it for realism, I think you can go 6,000 or 7,000, but not to say, 10,000 words. At some point, it's no longer simple and the core principle is lost.

The easiest place to make gains is to design new CRT's. The originals are primative, and if you replaced them, you get a big boost in realism without one extra rule added to the rulebook. That's your biggest bang for buck.

I wouldn't worry about creating rules that require honesty - you simply can't play Midway without honour anyways, and if you're worried about your opponent cheating then Midway is not the game to play. (The easiest way to be cheated upon is to have your opponent say 'no contact' when you actually found his fleet).

I like your idea to replace surface combat. I would suggest (1) keep the body of rules for surface combat at not much more than the original (2) make it less bloody, (3) make sure very little time is spent resolving any surface battle.

1] Optionally, add generic DDs - gut hunch on DD's is to keep them aabstract.


. . a] The Zuikaku with 5 F, 5 D, & 5 T [but can hold tot. of 21 PF] Curiously, trying to figure out what air group Zuikaku sortied with in June 1942 is a bit of a cottage industry. I'm thinking more along the lines of something like F10, D4, T3.

Ryujo and Junyo From the information I've seen, you could have a rule that Ryujo cannot operate dive bombers, and cannot launch more that 'T2' as torpedo bombers in one turn. (But can launch other "T" as level bombers).

Saratoga, CLAA, CA 4 DD I've got the Saratoga air wing in Lundstrom. It's something a little odd, like F14, D12, T4.

] The 1700 turn needs to be longer so planes can land.
Interestingly, the IJN had fully qualified night-attack carrier pilots, (torpedo attack). The USN had them too, I think. Both fleets were equipped to land aircraft at night.

Split the 2 night turns into 4 night turns. The 0500 turn each day is an "odd" turn. Definitely. Also, you have to look at night searching, since IJN cruisers (in particular) used their floatplanes at night.

At the end of the turn before you tell him where your attackks came from both players can search again. This time you just found him, then start the next turn. The rule about the origin of the strike was presumably created to prevent cheating. One option realistically deal with this, but not necessarily give away where the strike came from, would be to roll for an 'interrogation' of downed pilots. If the roll comes off then a captured pilots gives away the origin zone. If the roll fails, then you don't have to say where the strike came from. This way, the 'threat' of revelation is there, but it doesn't always happen.

1 area is searched in the regular search phase,
. . c] the other is "searched" just before you tell him where you are because you attacked him.
- I'd keep searching to one step. That's just my opinion though.

Also, 1 IJN search per turn and 2 per day by Mavis & Emily flying boats from the Marshall islands.
- IMO, this should be limited to the southwest part of the board.

Some way needs to be found to reduce losses from AA and increase losses from Ftrs. And scale Hits and Losses for the size of the battle. - recommend you redesign the CRT's.


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Steve
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GLENN239 wrote:
I think the principle to keep an eye on is simplicity and speed of play. The 'original' Midway rulebook is about 3,500 or 4,000 words, all in. If upgrading it for realism, I think you can go 6,000 or 7,000, but not to say, 10,000 words. At some point, it's no longer simple and the core principle is lost.

The easiest place to make gains is to design new CRT's. The originals are primative, and if you replaced them, you get a big boost in realism without one extra rule added to the rulebook. That's your biggest bang for buck.

I wouldn't worry about creating rules that require honesty - you simply can't play Midway without honour anyways, and if you're worried about your opponent cheating then Midway is not the game to play. (The easiest way to be cheated upon is to have your opponent say 'no contact' when you actually found his fleet).

I like your idea to replace surface combat. I would suggest (1) keep the body of rules for surface combat at not much more than the original (2) make it less bloody, (3) make sure very little time is spent resolving any surface battle.

1] Optionally, add generic DDs - gut hunch on DD's is to keep them aabstract.


. . a] The Zuikaku with 5 F, 5 D, & 5 T [but can hold tot. of 21 PF] Curiously, trying to figure out what air group Zuikaku sortied with in June 1942 is a bit of a cottage industry. I'm thinking more along the lines of something like F10, D4, T3.

Ryujo and Junyo From the information I've seen, you could have a rule that Ryujo cannot operate dive bombers, and cannot launch more that 'T2' as torpedo bombers in one turn. (But can launch other "T" as level bombers).

Saratoga, CLAA, CA 4 DD I've got the Saratoga air wing in Lundstrom. It's something a little odd, like F14, D12, T4.

] The 1700 turn needs to be longer so planes can land.
Interestingly, the IJN had fully qualified night-attack carrier pilots, (torpedo attack). The USN had them too, I think. Both fleets were equipped to land aircraft at night.

Split the 2 night turns into 4 night turns. The 0500 turn each day is an "odd" turn. Definitely. Also, you have to look at night searching, since IJN cruisers (in particular) used their floatplanes at night.

At the end of the turn before you tell him where your attackks came from both players can search again. This time you just found him, then start the next turn. The rule about the origin of the strike was presumably created to prevent cheating. One option realistically deal with this, but not necessarily give away where the strike came from, would be to roll for an 'interrogation' of downed pilots. If the roll comes off then a captured pilots gives away the origin zone. If the roll fails, then you don't have to say where the strike came from. This way, the 'threat' of revelation is there, but it doesn't always happen.

1 area is searched in the regular search phase,
. . c] the other is "searched" just before you tell him where you are because you attacked him.
- I'd keep searching to one step. That's just my opinion though.

Also, 1 IJN search per turn and 2 per day by Mavis & Emily flying boats from the Marshall islands.
- IMO, this should be limited to the southwest part of the board.

Some way needs to be found to reduce losses from AA and increase losses from Ftrs. And scale Hits and Losses for the size of the battle. - recommend you redesign the CRT's.
Glenn I did redo the CRTs. You can see them in my image gallery.

No, these flying boats had a huge range. The Bettys were sometimes met by PBYs in the SW map corner.

You might be right that 1 search phase and search 2 areas then might be better.

About night landings-- Later in the war, twice the US had to land planes at night. Both times they lost several/many planes. I have no info about if/when the IJN had to do this and what happened.

"Ryujo and Junyo From the information I've seen, you could have a rule that Ryujo cannot operate dive bombers, and cannot launch more that 'T2' as torpedo bombers in one turn. (But can launch other "T" as level bombers)."
So, why did Ryujo have only Ts in its air group. And Junyo had only Ds in its air group [both plus Fs]. Ryujo = 6 T + 6 F; Junyo = 8 F + 5 D.

My info on the Saratogo's air group is --
CV-3 . Saratoga . . class = Lexington, Capt. De Witt C. Ramsey
CAG: . 1 SBD-3 Dauntless Cdr. Harry D. Felt, = the air group commander's plane.
VF-2: 13 F4F-4 Wildcat Lt. Louis H. Bauer
VS-3: 22 SBD-3 Dauntless LtCdr. Louis J. Kirn
Cargo: 4 F4F-4 Wildcat, 43 SBD-3 Dauntless, 14 TBF-1 Avenger = not useable.
This is 7-8 Ds and 4 Fs.

I want to add to the Zuikaku air group with planes from the Shokaku, so what the Zuikaku really had is not definitive.

"1] Optionally, add generic DDs - gut hunch on DD's is to keep them abstract."
So, the AA of DD is [as now] added to the other ship's AA. I guess that they were there and it is be more accurate to make them separate. If you use AP instead of the Atago to represent the transports, then they had to give the AP an AA strength of 2, as much as a CA. This makes no sense to me. Just add the DD separately. I suggest that IJN be mostly the 2DD sort with AA of 1, which are not much use on the Battle Board; but the USN can use mostly the 3DD sort which have AA of 2. Of course as Glenn says at this time the 40 mm AA had not been fitted to US ships yet and the 1.1 " AA gun was almost useless. Some 20 mm had been fitted.
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Glenn McMaster
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Quote:
No, these flying boats had a huge range. The Bettys were sometimes met by PBYs in the SW map corner.


Betty’s were patrolling out 600nm or 700nm from Wake, but Wake is about 1100nm or 1200nm from Midway. The ‘Emily’ flying boat could, in theory, have patrolled to the north of Midway, and there were at two in the Marshalls at the time, but as we discussed before, no one really knows why they weren’t used. Probably the local commander failing to take the initiative after Operation 'K' failed.

Quote:
About night landings-- Later in the war, twice the US had to land planes at night. Both times they lost several/many planes. I have no info about if/when the IJN had to do this and what happened.


Not sure on USN pilots.

Maybe half or two thirds of Nagumo’s B5N2 pilots were capable of night attacks (training before the war was fairly regular, but I don’t know about during the war, and replacements). Night attacks weren’t considered as effective or reliable. IJN carriers had landing light systems to be able to land in pitch black, and radio homing. So, the first consequence of a night sortie would be that you have to give away the recovery area. Overall, night rules seem more appropriate to an Indian Ocean scenario with the British than they would be for Midway.

Quote:
So, why did Ryujo have only Ts in its air group. And Junyo had only Ds in its air group [both plus Fs]. Ryujo = 6 T + 6 F; Junyo = 8 F + 5 D.


Junyo’s group would have been short because there will not have been time to form a proper one. Ryujo’s lack of dive bombers is a subject of some debate. Some say that the ship’s elevators weren’t the right size. Others say that it was a doctrinal choice due to the lethality of torpedoes, (IJN war games from 1942 have torpedoes at ‘3’ damage points and bombs at ‘1’. Even allowing for greater accuracy in bombing, TB’s would pack a much bigger whollup).

Quote:
My info on the Saratogo's air group is –


I looking it up. Saratoga’s air group for her Midway sortie was highly unorthodox, according to Lundstrom. It was F16, D15, T5, ( 47 fighters, 45 dive bombers, 10 TBF’s, 5 TBD’s, 107 aircraft), from seven different air groups.

Quote:
want to add to the Zuikaku air group with planes from the Shokaku, so what the Zuikaku really had is not definitive.


No, but what Zuikaku had avaialable on May 9th is known, as is the fact that Zero fighters were in more abundance at the time than Vals or Kates – that’s where I get the assumption the carrier probably had more fighters.
 
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Steve
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GLENN239 wrote:
Quote:
No, these flying boats had a huge range. The Bettys were sometimes met by PBYs in the SW map corner.


Betty’s were patrolling out 600nm or 700nm from Wake, but Wake is about 1100nm or 1200nm from Midway. The ‘Emily’ flying boat could, in theory, have patrolled to the north of Midway, and there were at two in the Marshalls at the time, but as we discussed before, no one really knows why they weren’t used. Probably the local commander failing to take the initiative after Operation 'K' failed.

Quote:
About night landings-- Later in the war, twice the US had to land planes at night. Both times they lost several/many planes. I have no info about if/when the IJN had to do this and what happened.


Not sure on USN pilots.

Maybe half or two thirds of Nagumo’s B5N2 pilots were capable of night attacks (training before the war was fairly regular, but I don’t know about during the war, and replacements). Night attacks weren’t considered as effective or reliable. IJN carriers had landing light systems to be able to land in pitch black, and radio homing. So, the first consequence of a night sortie would be that you have to give away the recovery area. Overall, night rules seem more appropriate to an Indian Ocean scenario with the British than they would be for Midway.

Quote:
So, why did Ryujo have only Ts in its air group. And Junyo had only Ds in its air group [both plus Fs]. Ryujo = 6 T + 6 F; Junyo = 8 F + 5 D.


Junyo’s group would have been short because there will not have been time to form a proper one. Ryujo’s lack of dive bombers is a subject of some debate. Some say that the ship’s elevators weren’t the right size. Others say that it was a doctrinal choice due to the lethality of torpedoes, (IJN war games from 1942 have torpedoes at ‘3’ damage points and bombs at ‘1’. Even allowing for greater accuracy in bombing, TB’s would pack a much bigger whollup).

Quote:
My info on the Saratogo's air group is –


I looking it up. Saratoga’s air group for her Midway sortie was highly unorthodox, according to Lundstrom. It was F16, D15, T5, ( 47 fighters, 45 dive bombers, 10 TBF’s, 5 TBD’s, 107 aircraft), from seven different air groups.

Quote:
want to add to the Zuikaku air group with planes from the Shokaku, so what the Zuikaku really had is not definitive.


No, but what Zuikaku had avaialable on May 9th is known, as is the fact that Zero fighters were in more abundance at the time than Vals or Kates – that’s where I get the assumption the carrier probably had more fighters.
They could have moved any number of Emily/Mavis to the Marshalls. There were 2 there, but more were possible. They moved 4 CVs to 200 nmi. NNW of Midway, they could have moved 10 more Emily to the Marshalls. As to why they were not used-- I would not blame the local commander. The top staff made a plan that called for flying to Pearl Harbor to look for the US CVs there, but did not make a plan (or a back-up plan) to use them [or more of them] to look at the empty ocean 200 nmi NNE of Midway to see if they were there. A stupid oversight. Of course in the actual event, the US had broken their code and therefore wherever they planned to search, the US CVs would NOT have been there.

Saratog's air group-- my source is--
http://midway1942.org/order.shtml
It says-- CV-3 . Saratoga . . class = Lexington, Capt. De Witt C. Ramsey
CAG: . 1 SBD-3 Dauntless Cdr. Harry D. Felt, = the air group commander's plane.
VF-2: 13 F4F-4 Wildcat Lt. Louis H. Bauer
VS-3: 22 SBD-3 Dauntless LtCdr. Louis J. Kirn
Cargo= not useable: 4 F4F-4 Wildcat, 43 SBD-3 Dauntless, 14 TBF-1 Avenger
This is 7-8 Ds and 4 Fs.

This source [below] is different and seems like yours. Planes from 8 diff. Squadrons. Some of these may have been CARGO though.
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=78&t=74...
CSAG 1 SBD-3 . the air group commander's plane
VF-5 18 F4F-4's . CV-5=Yorktown VF-5 is the fighter squadron from CV-5
VF-72 20 F4F-4's . unknown fighter squadron, probably cargo?
VF-2(Detach) 9 F4F-4's . from CV-2=Lexington's fighter Squadron
VS-3 25 SBD-3's . CV-3=Saratoga's own Scouting Squad.
VS-5 10 SBD-3's . CV-5=Yorktown= Yorktown's scouting squadron
Ferry Detach. 9 SBD-3's . just planes? and crews? Cargo?
VT-5 5 TBD-1's . CV-5=Yorktown= Yorktown's torpedo squadron
VT-8(Detach) 10 TBF-1's . CV=8=Hornet= Hornet's torpedo squadron

What is this Lundstrom source? My source has many planes as cargo.

With all these planes as cargo do we need a "cargo" rule? The IJN CV also had zeros as cargo, but were they carrier qualified? They were from Squadron number 6-something. The intention was to fly them off to Midway after the airfield was repaired. Here, that would be after the game is over. Is VF-72 carrier qualified? The "Ferry Detach." isn't? But, could be flown to Midway. The others are all CV qualified. The source says that Saratoga did "replenish" TF-17's planes and then went to PH, not Calif.

Zuikaku's air group-- that is interesting. What I said was just a quess. As the IJN player I would like to have more Fs to defend the APs if nothing else.

Would you agree that all the Hosho is good for here is bait. That is, making a TF with BB & CA look like the CV TF to an air search? The Shoho at Coral Sea became bait and they sent out a CVL as bait at The Battle of the Eastern Solomons.
 
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Marc Harkness
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Over on the Warship Projects Discussion Boards, We had a discussion of under what circumstances and with what sort of air group Saratoga might carry into battle at Midway. The key seems to be leaving Bremerton for Pearl Harbor at best sustained speed on May 25 pausing only long enough to fuel and gather VS-3, not waiting for Rear Admiral Fitch, and ordering escorts to proceed independently to Pearl as well.

Saratoga MUST reach Pearl Harbor no later May 31st (Assuming a 24 hour turn around.) if she is to be on station in time. There is not time to go to San Diego and conduct deck qualifications or load any aircraft as cargo. So the ship arrives at Pearl with VF-2 Detachment of 9 F4F-4 and 24 SBDs. (CSAG Cmdr Felt and Bullet Kirn's VS-3)

AT Pearl waiting are 5 TBDs remaining from VT-5 which Yorktown traded out for VT-3 upon her return from Coral Sea. (It was our opinion that since VT-3 starts under strength, that these aircraft probably ought to simply be integrated into it... Perhaps one sent over to fill out VT-6 on Enterprise.) Also waiting are 10 SBDs of VS-5 (These are different from the VS-5 under Wallace Short but are ALSO veterans of Coral Sea.) These will give Saratoga a full 34 SBDs.
Importantly though is the arrival by transport of three other squadrons: VF-5, VF-72, and the second team for VT-8: 16 brand new TBFs under Swede Larsen that just missed their carrier (USS Hornet) by one day. Saratoga will take VF-5 and VT-8, giving her 27 F4F-4s, 34 SBDs, and 16 TBFs. No TBFs will be sent to Midway. This total of 77 is close to the total of aircraft she carried at Eastern Solomons (73) and should be within her ability to effectively handle.

Saratoga's air group is flawed in that it has not trained as a coherent whole but frankly they can't do worse than Hornet's air group 8. At least the pilots of VS-5 are combat veterans and VS-3 should be as effective as Max Leslie's VB-3. Taking more aircraft than this would be awkward due to Sara's design and limited hangar space.

* I ought to note this refers to taking them into COMBAT. The numbers she carried out in the aftermath of Midway were carried expressedly to restock the depleted squadrons of TF-16

My main question is what escorts could gather in time for Saratoga to sortie for Midway on June 1st assuming they independently sail. The normal OOB for TF-11 includes CL USS San Diego and four DDs but with orders for independent sortie, this may be different.

 
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Marc Harkness
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Further searching shows that Squadron VF-72 would DEFINITELY have been carrier qualified being a squadron on detachment from USS Wasp.

As for escorts, CLAA USS San Diego certainly would have been able to independently sortie to Pearl Harbor in time but also CA USS Chester would have made Pearl Harbor carrying Rear Admiral Fitch in time IF she had been ordered to divert to Pearl Harbor instead of attempting to gather with Saratoga at San Diego (She arrived in San Diego on June 3, two days after Saratoga left for Pearl.)
 
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