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Subject: A couple rules questions rss

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Randy McKinney
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We played our first game tonight with all of the expansions added in. During the game, we had a couple questions come up that we could not find answers for in the FAQs or rule books. Hoping someone might be able to point something out that we've overlooked.

1) If a character has a card played on him that would prevent him from dying (such as "Against All Odds"), would it also prevent him from becoming a zombie hero? There are a few cards that can cause a character to become a Zombie Hero in different scenarios. "Bitten", "Infected", and "I Feel Kinda Strange" being the three we immediately thought of.

2) If you are on one side of a double wall, do you have LOS to the other side of the double wall? I saw a mostly unanswered question that was similar concerning the Library and the Antique Shop. However, in our case, we specifically had two parallel walls using Timber Peak's Radio Station and the Diner. Can you see from the Diner into the Radio Station and vice versa if you are touching a wall between them?

3) What is the official ruling on LOS and building corners? In this case, the corner of a building would have seemingly blocked LOS to part of a space, but not all of it. We found a question on whether or not it should be from center to center in the FAQ. However, it gave an unhelpful (almost zen like) answer of, "Don't worry about centers! You either see it or you don't." Not really helpful.
 
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Chris McGuire
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Saberj wrote:

1) If a character has a card played on him that would prevent him from dying (such as "Against All Odds"), would it also prevent him from becoming a zombie hero? There are a few cards that can cause a character to become a Zombie Hero in different scenarios. "Bitten", "Infected", and "I Feel Kinda Strange" being the three we immediately thought of.


With this one, specifically, the argument was made that a card like "Bitten" or "I Feel Kinda Strange" says "...instead of taking a wound, the Hero becomes a Zombie Hero" (might be a slight paraphrase there). One of the players argued that these cards did not technically say the Hero was killed and therefore "Against All Odds" which says "...the Hero cannot be killed in any way" (until the end of the turn) would not save them because they were "becoming a Zombie Hero" without technically dying.
 
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Jonnie Hedqvist
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Ardrikk wrote:

...because they were "becoming a Zombie Hero" without technically dying.


I disagree here, simply by using classic zombie trivia, since you can't become a zombie without dying.
You can't have a Kentucky Fried Chicken, by breaking some eggs.

So I think that anything that would end up with your hero passing through the status "dead" is cancelled by cards like "Against All Odds". So save your Bitten card until the next turn instead.
 
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Chris McGuire
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Daarkh wrote:
Ardrikk wrote:

...because they were "becoming a Zombie Hero" without technically dying.


I disagree here, simply by using classic zombie trivia, since you can't become a zombie without dying.
You can't have a Kentucky Fried Chicken, by breaking some eggs.

So I think that anything that would end up with your hero passing through the status "dead" is cancelled by cards like "Against All Odds". So save your Bitten card until the next turn instead.


I personally agree. Just because a zombie didn't violently kill you doesn't mean that you didn't die just the same when you succumbed to the infection.

And beyond just thematics, if you turn a Hero into a Zombie Hero, that counts as one of the 4 Heroes (or 3 in some of the new scenarios) the zombie needs to kill to get a victory.
 
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Mark Evans
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Saberj wrote:
1) If a character has a card played on him that would prevent him from dying (such as "Against All Odds"), would it also prevent him from becoming a zombie hero? There are a few cards that can cause a character to become a Zombie Hero in different scenarios. "Bitten", "Infected", and "I Feel Kinda Strange" being the three we immediately thought of.


This topic was discussed in another way regarding "how many heroes killed" counts for winning the game. It was more or less the consensus that being turned into a zombie counts as killed. I think that logic applies here as well.
 
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Mark Evans
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Saberj wrote:
2) If you are on one side of a double wall, do you have LOS to the other side of the double wall? I saw a mostly unanswered question that was similar concerning the Library and the Antique Shop. However, in our case, we specifically had two parallel walls using Timber Peak's Radio Station and the Diner. Can you see from the Diner into the Radio Station and vice versa if you are touching a wall between them?


Yeah, I don't know. Maybe you could draw us a picture. Some people use what we used to call ASCII Art, e.g. (Can A see B?)

o o o B
----- o o
o A |o o
o o |o o


Quote:
3) What is the official ruling on LOS and building corners? In this case, the corner of a building would have seemingly blocked LOS to part of a space, but not all of it. We found a question on whether or not it should be from center to center in the FAQ. However, it gave an unhelpful (almost zen like) answer of, "Don't worry about centers! You either see it or you don't." Not really helpful.


I don't really get the picture here. Same thing. Maybe a picture would help.
 
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Andrew Killion
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1. To answer your first question Against All Odds DOES prevent a hero from turning into a zombie hero. Here's a quote from the creator of the game

Against All Odds
jchill7 wrote:


All her Health Boxes will be filled up except the last one (remember that she DOES still get to roll for her Intuition ability for each wound she would take).

Also, part of the 'may not be killed' is that the Hero may not be turned into a Zombie Hero in any way.

You can find all of this plus further explanation on the back of your Growing Hunger Rulebook (upper right corner).


- Jason

Jason C. Hill
Flying Frog Productions



2. If it's a double wall meaning the wall is drawn on both grid spaces like the library and antique shop you can not shoot between them. but if it's a single wall like the school and gym you could.

3. Do you mean you are on the outside corner looking in or inside the building looking out? If you are inside the building you are touching both walls so you can shoot out of either within range. I think that of you are outside of the building looking in you can not shoot inside because you are not touching either wall.
 
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Chris McGuire
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For the question of Line of Sight, the situation was that the Hero was a few spaces away, outside, and the zombie was at the corner of a building. The ascii drawing below doesn't quite line up to look right, but the zombie was right at the corner space. Does that help or do you need more elaboration?



00000000|00000000
00000000|00000000
-------------|Z000000
00000000000000000
00000H00000000000
00000000000000000
 
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Randy McKinney
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Ardrikk wrote:
For the question of Line of Sight, the situation was that the Hero was a few spaces away, outside, and the zombie was at the corner of a building. The ascii drawing below doesn't quite line up to look right, but the zombie was right at the corner space. Does that help or do you need more elaboration?



00000000|00000000
00000000|00000000
-------------|Z000000
00000000000000000
00000H00000000000
00000000000000000


I believe the hero was actually one space further down. Because the corner BARELY obstructed the space. But it did slightly.
 
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J B
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Saberj wrote:
Ardrikk wrote:
For the question of Line of Sight, the situation was that the Hero was a few spaces away, outside, and the zombie was at the corner of a building. The ascii drawing below doesn't quite line up to look right, but the zombie was right at the corner space. Does that help or do you need more elaboration?



00000000|00000000
00000000|00000000
-------------|Z000000
00000000000000000
00000H00000000000
00000000000000000


I believe the hero was actually one space further down. Because the corner BARELY obstructed the space. But it did slightly.


If you can do a diagonal line between the two spaces, the zombie can be shot. If there is confusion, try taking a ruler and seeing if you can, from any point in either space, connect them.

 
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Chris McGuire
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There are usually 2 schools of thought in board gaming regarding line of sight:

1) Trace from the center of one space to the center of the other
2) Trace from any corner of one space to any corner of the other

Obviously #2 is more forgiving. We opted to use #1 and found that the corner wall blocked a tracing from center to center. That seemed the most logical to us, but we wanted to see what the official method was for this game.
 
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Chris McGuire
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drewkill wrote:
1. To answer your first question Against All Odds DOES prevent a hero from turning into a zombie hero. Here's a quote from the creator of the game

Against All Odds
jchill7 wrote:


All her Health Boxes will be filled up except the last one (remember that she DOES still get to roll for her Intuition ability for each wound she would take).

Also, part of the 'may not be killed' is that the Hero may not be turned into a Zombie Hero in any way.

You can find all of this plus further explanation on the back of your Growing Hunger Rulebook (upper right corner).


- Jason

Jason C. Hill
Flying Frog Productions



2. If it's a double wall meaning the wall is drawn on both grid spaces like the library and antique shop you can not shoot between them. but if it's a single wall like the school and gym you could.

3. Do you mean you are on the outside corner looking in or inside the building looking out? If you are inside the building you are touching both walls so you can shoot out of either within range. I think that of you are outside of the building looking in you can not shoot inside because you are not touching either wall.


Thank you for this, by the way! I knew I remembered reading Jason Hill describing a situation like this, but I couldn't find it in either the FAQ on FFP's wiki or the 30 page FAQ that the community created.
 
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J B
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Ardrikk wrote:
There are usually 2 schools of thought in board gaming regarding line of sight:

1) Trace from the center of one space to the center of the other
2) Trace from any corner of one space to any corner of the other

Obviously #2 is more forgiving. We opted to use #1 and found that the corner wall blocked a tracing from center to center. That seemed the most logical to us, but we wanted to see what the official method was for this game.


In this game I believe (I'm not 100% sure) that the official answer is to trace from any point in either space to any point in the other. Although it may be corner to corner (which would accomplish the same thing in all cases). It is NOT center to to center.

That said, I have never encountered a situation where LOS was in question...it either clearly was or clearly wasn't. I think you may be overthinking the complexity of LNOE rules or looking at this from too much of a minigamers perspective or something.
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Chris McGuire
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In this case, it was not a clear answer.

If traced from corner to corner, there was LOS from one square to another. If traced from center to center, due to the corner of a building being in between the Hero and the zombie, there was no LOS.

Looking at it from a thematic/realistic viewpoint, the zombie might still be around the corner of the building and so the Hero couldn't see it yet. It struck both of us playing as very possibly blocking line of sight, but not definitively so like if there had been an entire wall between the two figures instead of just the corner of one.
 
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Chris McGuire
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Let's see if I can help by posting some actual pictures instead of ascii drawings. Below are 4 scenarios; In which of them does the Hero have LOS to the zombie? You can click each image to go to the page for it and view it larger.

#1





#2





#3





#4

 
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Chris McGuire
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BTW, I cross posted the line of sight pictures and question, from above, in its own thread: http://boardgamegeek.com/article/11207253#11207253
 
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Wade Campbell
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Ardrikk wrote:
Let's see if I can help by posting some actual pictures instead of ascii drawings....


Never really thought about it, but guess I'm a center-to-center guy. #1 is the only "no" I feel out of the bunch. I could be convinced to house rule a -1 to the roll for a corner-to-corner, though.
 
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Chris McGuire
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Tynee wrote:
Ardrikk wrote:
Let's see if I can help by posting some actual pictures instead of ascii drawings....


Never really thought about it, but guess I'm a center-to-center guy. #1 is the only "no" I feel out of the bunch. I could be convinced to house rule a -1 to the roll for a corner-to-corner, though.


But, in #3, you can't trace a straight line from the center of the Hero's square to the center of the zombie's square either.
 
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Chris McGuire
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Ardrikk wrote:
Tynee wrote:
Ardrikk wrote:
Let's see if I can help by posting some actual pictures instead of ascii drawings....


Never really thought about it, but guess I'm a center-to-center guy. #1 is the only "no" I feel out of the bunch. I could be convinced to house rule a -1 to the roll for a corner-to-corner, though.


But, in #3, you can't trace a straight line from the center of the Hero's square to the center of the zombie's square either.


Ah, sorry...yes you can trace a straight line from center to center in #3. Just not if you trace straight out from a diagonal.

Ultimately, I think I prefer the center to center method myself. It's clear cut and less fiddly than trying to trace along diagonals and more realistic than the "any corner to any corner" method.
 
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Mark Evans
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I looked at the rules and the FAQ. It seems that the designers are referring to a grid when determining LOS. This implies a center to center model.

Based on that and my understanding of the wall rules.

#1 No
#2 Yes
#3 No
#4 Yes

EDIT: #3 is actually Yes.
 
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Chris McGuire
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drmark64 wrote:
I looked at the rules and the FAQ. It seems that the designers are referring to a grid when determining LOS. This implies a center to center model.

Based on that and my understanding of the wall rules.

#1 No
#2 Yes
#3 No
#4 Yes


Why not #3? Do the grid rules say that you not only have to trace from center to center, but you have to go straight out along the diagonals or straight out from the middle of a side when diagonal angles aren't involved?
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Mark Evans
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The zombie is inside the building. So if I get this right, the wall that the hero is not adjacent to, will block LOS.
 
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Chris McGuire
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drmark64 wrote:
The zombie is inside the building. So if I get this right, the wall that the hero is not adjacent to, will block LOS.


I think you mean the *Hero* is inside the building, which he is, as the zombie is outside in every picture. However, the Hero is touching both walls (the one to his left and the one below him), so he can see through those walls, and trace LoS with them no problem. With that picture, I just wanted to show the weird angle between the Hero and the zombie when trying to trace LoS.
 
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Mark Evans
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Ouch. I looked and saw the zombie as the white guy and the hero as the brown guy.
 
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Yes in all four cases, as a straight line can be traced from one space to the other in all examples.

I'm not sure where this "center to center" thing is coming from, as no rulebook I have says that, unless things have changed in Timber Peak and I didn't notice. It just says from one space to the other.
 
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