Recommend
35 
 Thumb up
 Hide
143 Posts
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »  [6] | 

BoardGameGeek» Forums » Gaming Related » General Gaming

Subject: AP is not downtime - learn the difference rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
SAKURA in KYOTO 2018 Back to Kansai
England
York
North Yorkshire
flag msg tools
admin
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
AP is Analysis Paralysis. It's an affliction that affects a player, not a game. A player with AP will demonstrate AP with whatever game they play.

Downtime is when a game leaves players waiting too long for their actions. It's a problem of game design, especially when there are too many options. Some games are still worth playing despite downtime (Tikal being the most obvious).

Yes, AP meeting downtime is a catastrophe, but AP is NOT downtime.

I mention this because, reading the comments on Belfort, low raters include a lot of warnings on AP. A game cannot have AP. Presumably they mean downtime, or they play with AP prone players and cannot distinguish between a player problem and a game problem.

Please, know your AP! Games do not have AP, they have downtime. If a game has downtime, say downtime, not AP.
50 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Boeren
United States
Marietta
Georgia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Good luck, but in years of trying to get people to understand distinctions between slightly-similar but mostly-different terms I haven't seen it work yet.
12 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
"that's a smith and wesson, and you've had your six"
Avatar
mbmbmb
I disagree. Games can most certainly be AP prone. And AP prone games can not only affect players who generally are prone to AP, but players who are not usually affected by AP.

Anyone is prone to Analysis Paralysis, depending on the game.
91 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Cyrus the Great
United States
Atlanta
Georgia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
There are games that can induce AP, however. It is a lot easier to make decisions in, say, Yahtzee, than in Through the Ages. This is true even of some games that have relatively little downtime from a pure design perspective: in Go, all you have to do is wait for the other player to put one stone on the board! Because Go is so complex to analyze, however, it is a game that can induce AP, and thus extensive downtime.
36 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
GeekInsight
United States
Whittier
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
While it's true that downtime and AP are different, some games are more prone to AP than others. Especially games where you have to plan far in advance and/or where there are many options.

Power Grid starts with an auction each turn, but players must factor in that they will also be buying raw materials, new city locations, and connection costs. So all of that tabulating can lead to AP as players go over a variety of different actions, costs, and backup plans.

Belfort is similar. It's easy to get caught in a sea of options - especially as the game progresses. So, Belfort is definitely prone to AP. Of course, it also has downtime since one player completes all of their tasks before the next player goes.

It should be obvious, though, that some games and systems are more prone to AP than others.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian M
United States
Thornton
Colorado
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
A game cannot have AP.

Some games have downtime even if the players are moving fast; in a game of Titan, for example, having to wait through 12 stacks moving around and 2 battles in a 4 player game can lead to a lot of downtime even if all the players are going fast.

However, look at Fearsome Floors. I can take a turn in seconds. Grab one of my pieces, run for exit. Fearsome Floors does not have to have downtime. However, I can also analyze where each piece can move, where each opposing piece can move, how I can set up to lure the monster in certain directions, where the monster is likely to end up based on the tiles I have already flipped, etc, etc. I can likely do better in the game by analyzing all this.

Fearsome Floors does not inherently have downtime. Fearsome Floors is likely to trigger AP.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Buckley
England
Bath
Somerset
flag msg tools
23rd June: Black Thursday :(
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
EYE of NiGHT wrote:
AP is Analysis Paralysis. It's an affliction that affects a player, not a game. A player with AP will demonstrate AP with whatever game they play.


Respectfully disagree. I demonstrate AP in some games and not in others. In general the more the game gives me to think about the longer I take over my moves.

Quote:

Downtime is when a game leaves players waiting too long for their actions. It's a problem of game design, especially when there are too many options. Some games are still worth playing despite downtime (Tikal being the most obvious).

Yes, AP meeting downtime is a catastrophe, but AP is NOT downtime.


I see AP as a component of total downtime. The extent to which downtime is a problem depends on how much I have to think about when I am waiting for my turn.

Quote:

I mention this because, reading the comments on Belfort, low raters include a lot of warnings on AP. A game cannot have AP. Presumably they mean downtime, or they play with AP prone players and cannot distinguish between a player problem and a game problem.

Please, know your AP! Games do not have AP, they have downtime. If a game has downtime, say downtime, not AP.


AP is as partly down to the players and partly down to the game.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian Cherry
Canada
flag msg tools
Obligitory Smart-Ass Comment Here
badge
Shhhhhhhh!
Avatar
So, you are upset about the word people choose to use....

You who has chosen to use the term "affliction" to label a persons habits. If you mean habit, then say habit.

Unless you meant that AP is a disease - okay then.

Shall we argue about Mechanics vs Mechanisms next?

13 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt Boehland
United States
Apple Valley
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
the1jugg wrote:

Shall we argue about Mechanics vs Mechanisms next?



No, strategy vs. tactics!
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
SAKURA in KYOTO 2018 Back to Kansai
England
York
North Yorkshire
flag msg tools
admin
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
dboeren wrote:
Good luck, but in years of trying to get people to understand distinctions between slightly-similar but mostly-different terms I haven't seen it work yet.


I know, I'm a fool to try. Heyho.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Curt Carpenter
United States
Kirkland
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
MWChapel wrote:
I disagree. Games can most certainly be AP prone.

Exactly.

Further,
EYE of NiGHT wrote:
Games do not have AP, they have downtime. If a game has downtime, say downtime, not AP.

Saying a game has/is AP (Prone) is not necessarily the same as downtime. There could be downtime for many reasons. Primarily, turns could just take a long time not because someone can't make up their mind, but because there's a lot of stuff going on on each player's turn, as opposed to games with micro turns.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Kazimierczak
United States
Falmouth
Maine
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Having suffered through another player's AP several times and had a few perseverating moments myself, I agree that it is game dependent. The total number of choices per turn multiplied by the number of turns you need to think ahead gives a general idea of potential delays.

However sometimes a player has a weakness for a certain game and always overthinks it. I never thought 7 Wonders would be AP prone, but the combination of shifting strategies and generally speedy simultaneous turns makes a long delay while one player argues with himself particularly annoying.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
nyn -
United States
Portland
Oregon
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Doesn't look like you're getting any traction on this one... laugh

If you can't beat'm, ....shake
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
SAKURA in KYOTO 2018 Back to Kansai
England
York
North Yorkshire
flag msg tools
admin
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
curtc wrote:
MWChapel wrote:
I disagree. Games can most certainly be AP prone.

Exactly.

Further,
EYE of NiGHT wrote:
Games do not have AP, they have downtime. If a game has downtime, say downtime, not AP.

Saying a game has/is AP (Prone) is not necessarily the same as downtime. There could be downtime for many reasons. Primarily, turns could just take a long time not because someone can't make up their mind, but because there's a lot of stuff going on on each player's turn, as opposed to games with micro turns.


A game is cardboard and cubes. It makes no decisions. It cannot be paralysed since it makes no analysis.

The person makes the analysis, and some suffer paralysis.

A game cannot have AP.

A person can have AP.

A game with a variety of choices might cause someone to pause whilst considering, but that is not Analysis Paralysis. AP is when a player locks up through an inability to make even a simple choice. Calling downtime AP because a game needs some thought sometimes is incorrect.
10 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
SAKURA in KYOTO 2018 Back to Kansai
England
York
North Yorkshire
flag msg tools
admin
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
stpauler wrote:
It's Mary's turn and I have to wait until she's done for my turn. This is downtime.

It's Mary's turn and she has AP and I have to wait until she's done for my turn. This is also my downtime.

All AP is downtime.

But not all downtime is AP.

Syllogisms at work and play here.


Nope.

It's Mary's turn and I have to wait until she's done for my turn. If the game requires several actions or choices before I can even begin to consider my move, this is downtime.

It's Mary's turn and she has AP and I have to wait until she's done for my turn. This is only AP and stops when I stop making the mistake of playing games with Mary.

AP is not downtime. AP is AP, a player problem. Downtime is a game problem that may or may not be tolerable.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Julian Wasson
United States
Washington
flag msg tools
DAD JOKES
badge
Never trot when you can prance.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Downtime is the time when you're waiting to take an action and have no meaningful way to interact with the game. Note this is an inherently subjective measure, as time spent considering your next move during opponents' turns doesn't contribute to downtime.

AP certainly is a contributing factor to downtime. If you have an AP prone player in a game with a high AP factor, your game will have lots of downtime. It's only really a problem when there is a lot of bookkeeping to be done each turn which prolongs turns without adding more to consider between turns, or when some players fail to consider their moves until their turn or take much longer or shorter times to figure out their moves than other players at the table. For a group of all heavy AP players who are considerate enough to plan ahead, a game might take a long time but it will have very little downtime for each player. On the other hand, Dominion has a crapton of downtime for me, even in a fast group, because I tend to make my strategic decisions very early and the tactical decisions are negligible. Also, Ascension inherently has a large amount of downtime in games with large numbers of players because you can't figure out your turn before your turn actually starts, so the entirety of the time between turns in a 4-5 player game is downtime.

Also, I think it's self-evident to anybody who's played a variety of different games with a variety of different players that certain games trigger AP more or less than other games, and that this can vary from player to player and game to game.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Leber
Canada
Orillia
ON
flag msg tools
Yin
badge
Yang
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think it can be helpful, during a review or summary, to point out that a game may be a poor choice for an AP prone player/group. I just don't believe that it should, in any way, be considered a negative towards the game itself.

Edit: And for the record, I also believe that certain games just inherently require more time to think. This should (obviously?) not be considered AP at all. They are just a bad combination with AP.

So in summary, I think that some games can make AP worse for AP prone people, and yes some games can cause AP in people who generally don't suffer from AP. But that still doesn't mean that a game has some sort of "built in" AP. I don't think that's possible. It's still all on the player, because natural "thinking time" doesn't count as AP.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian Davis
United States
Hobbs
New Mexico
flag msg tools
This was a triumph
badge
But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying til' you run out of cake.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
stpauler wrote:

It's Mary's turn and she has AP and I have to wait until she's done for my turn. This is only AP and stops when I stop making the mistake of playing games with Mary.


LOL! Exactly what I was thinking!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
SAKURA in KYOTO 2018 Back to Kansai
England
York
North Yorkshire
flag msg tools
admin
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Cosmonaut Zero wrote:
snip

For a group of all heavy AP players who are considerate enough to plan ahead, a game might take a long time but it will have very little downtime for each player.


Excuse the snipping, but the key point was lost in the text.

If they all have heavy AP, any game will take years, since each time it gets to one's turn, they become PARALYSED by the analysis. The caps are for emphasis.

Taking time to consider one's moves is not AP. Dithering in the face of too much choice is not AP. AP is being unable to make even simple obvious decisions. It's an internal loop the player cannot break out of.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Samo Oleami
Slovenia
Ljubljana
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
So AP is user generated downtime. But sometimes user is in situation where they can not avoid this. And downtime is AP which could be avoided by clever design.
So both certainly are related.

It's even harder to distinguish as both AP and downtime make player to wait for other players, the question is only whose fault it is.

With downtime it means the game flow is such that even with quick play you're bound to experiences gaps in game where there's nothing for you to do, but wait. Then again this can be related to AP prone design as it means the game can be too chaotic for plans to be made before your turn comes up.

There are though cases where this can be distinguished:
For instance a game has downtime issue if it can be significantly improved if players take new cards at the end of their turns instead of at beginning. Of AP is purely user generated when people try to calculate outcomes in situations where this can't be done (successfully).

So yeah, I'd say there are cases where AP and downtime can be distinguished, but there are also cases where "downtime" and "AP prone" refer to the same problem.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian M
United States
Thornton
Colorado
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
AP is being unable to make even simple obvious decisions.

You seem to using a different definition of AP than many of us are using.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian Cherry
Canada
flag msg tools
Obligitory Smart-Ass Comment Here
badge
Shhhhhhhh!
Avatar
EYE of NiGHT wrote:
curtc wrote:
MWChapel wrote:
I disagree. Games can most certainly be AP prone.

Exactly.

Further,
EYE of NiGHT wrote:
Games do not have AP, they have downtime. If a game has downtime, say downtime, not AP.

Saying a game has/is AP (Prone) is not necessarily the same as downtime. There could be downtime for many reasons. Primarily, turns could just take a long time not because someone can't make up their mind, but because there's a lot of stuff going on on each player's turn, as opposed to games with micro turns.


A game is cardboard and cubes. It makes no decisions. It cannot be paralysed since it makes no analysis.

The person makes the analysis, and some suffer paralysis.

A game cannot have AP.

A person can have AP.

A game with a variety of choices might cause someone to pause whilst considering, but that is not Analysis Paralysis. AP is when a player locks up through an inability to make even a simple choice. Calling downtime AP because a game needs some thought sometimes is incorrect.


Lol. you sound like Rama Kandra from The Matrix Revolutions. "Love is a word. What matters is the connection which the word implies". If he is right, it doesnt matter what I call something, if it triggers the right response. For example, the french call an Apple a Pomme. Its not wrong, just a different name for the same object. Chips vs Frech Fries. Football vs Soccer.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
SAKURA in KYOTO 2018 Back to Kansai
England
York
North Yorkshire
flag msg tools
admin
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
StormKnight wrote:
Quote:
AP is being unable to make even simple obvious decisions.

You seem to using a different definition of AP than many of us are using.


Yes, most of you are using AP to mean downtime or slow play. Hence the OP.

Quote:
AP is being unable to make even simple obvious decisions.


Let me clarify that line.

AP is when a player becomes mentally paralysed, unable to make a choice when faced with even simple, obvious choices.

Faced with complex choices, lots of people will need time to consider, and may find it impossible to make a valid choice through confusion.

But that is not Analysis Paralysis. They still go ahead and make a choice, usually declaring that it will be a mistake.

Analysis Paralysis is something a particular person has. Or rather, they lack the ability to recognise the paralysis and break from it in any reasonable time. When playing a game with them, they will always take too long to decide, regardless of the game or the options.

Somebody with severe AP will find it hard to function in society in any case, so it's not necessary to go down that line. I used to sell luggage. One time, somebody came in and after some discussion, they had to choose between two very similar cases. One had a pocket on the outside, the other had no pocket on the outside, but one on the inside instead. After three hours comparing the two cases side by side, they left, and returned the next day with a friend, and spent a further two hours comparing the two cases before finally buying one.

That's Analysis Paralysis.

A game with a variety of paths and options might take a long time because some players will take longer to make decisions, but that's not AP. It might not. It's a function of the players, not the game. But that's still not AP, because playing slow is not AP. It's downtime.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lee Fisher
United States
Downingtown
PA
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
StormKnight wrote:

You seem to using a different definition of AP than many of us are using.


This.

I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish here (other than being pedantic?). It is useful and informative to have the two separate concepts.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
SAKURA in KYOTO 2018 Back to Kansai
England
York
North Yorkshire
flag msg tools
admin
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
the1jugg wrote:
Chips vs French Fries.


French Fries are not chips. shake

No, I'm not saying that the idea is independent of the language. I'm saying they have misused the phrase AP to the point of removing its function in our study. By saying a game has AP, they only say that they do not know what AP means. They don't explain if the game is prone to delay because of confusion or poor design or too many things to do. Saying a game has AP is pointless, because it cannot.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »  [6] | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.