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Subject: Railroad Tycoon - Does your entire RR have to be connected? rss

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Kurt Keckley
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The player who taught RRT to me insisted that a player can only build from a city where he is already terminated (exception being a players very first build, of course). Thus all of a players links will be connected.

I did not find that anywhere in the rulebook. Can a player lay track anywhere on the map or must new track originate from a city where the player is already connected?

Thanks
 
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Jonathan Tang
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The way we played, your links do not have to be connected. You can start a new link anywhere on the board.
 
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Michael D
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Re: Railroad Tycoon - Does your entire RR have to be connect
I am pretty sure that's incorrect. All of the tracks you lay in a single action must connect, and they must get to another city by the end of the turn, but there is nothing in the rules that require all of your tracks to be continous. In fact, if that were the case, the rules for delivering cubes over other persons' tracks would largely be nonsense.

So, in my opinion, you're absolutely correctly and there is no rule that I see in the rulebook that could be read otherwise.

Tragic
 
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David Etherton
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Re: Railroad Tycoon - Does your entire RR have to be connect
The other responses are correct.

You can start building a link from any open port on any city, placing a control marker on one of the tiles. You can build up to four tiles per round (five with Perfect Engineering). You can only have one incomplete link on the board at a time -- you can't start two different links from two different cities at the same time, even if you intended them to meet in the middle. From the rules: "The first tile laid must either connect to a city or to the end of an incompelte link that the building player owns. All subsequent tiles laid during that action must then extend that link". This means that you could start a new link on a subsequent round, although you couldn't finish both unless they met in the middle.

You can complete at most one link per round. (So you can't finish two short links in one round).

Any partially-built track is removed at the end of the turn (after three rounds are complete), so make sure you finish what you started (unless you were only building a one-tile link to block somebody else while making deliveries or doing some other action).

One other rule that's not in the rulebook -- you can redirect the last tile of your incomplete link by re-paying the appropriate cost for that hex and replacing the tile if somebody was trying to block you (or you change your mind as to which city you want to connect to).
 
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Keith Blume
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Etherton is correct. One small note, you could have two incomplete tracks (building from different cities in two separate rounds) this would be unwise because you could not finish both of them before the turn finished (you would only have 1 more round and therefore could only complete one of the links) and then the incomplete track would be removed.
 
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David Etherton
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Re: Railroad Tycoon - Does your entire RR have to be connect
keithblume2 wrote:
Etherton is correct. One small note, you could have two incomplete tracks (building from different cities in two separate rounds) this would be unwise because you could not finish both of them before the turn finished (you would only have 1 more round and therefore could only complete one of the links) and then the incomplete track would be removed.


Damn, I've been playing that wrong (and my Player Aid is wrong too). The rules state "The first tile laid must either connect to a city or to the end of an incomplete link that the building player owns. All subsequent tiles laid during that action must then extend that link." Somehow I interpreted that to mean "during that turn" instead. Sigh.

This makes it much easier to block another player inexpensively. They start a link you want to block, so build one tile per round for two rounds to block two separate entrances. I suppose the more common cause is starting a new link, getting it blocked before you can finish it, and then using your next two actions to build a different link instead.

I'm nearly positive that I saw this ruled as "only one incomplete link at a time" somewhere else but maybe I'm just smoking crack.

-Dave
 
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David Etherton
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Re: Railroad Tycoon - Does your entire RR have to be connect
keithblume2 wrote:
One small note, you could have two incomplete tracks (building from different cities in two separate rounds) this would be unwise because you could not finish both of them before the turn finished (you would only have 1 more round and therefore could only complete one of the links) and then the incomplete track would be removed.


Can you start building from one city in the first round, then start building from another city in the second round, and then join the two during the third round, completing the link? I don't see anything in the rules forbidding this.
 
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Alvin Chen
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Re: Railroad Tycoon - Does your entire RR have to be connect
etherton wrote:

This makes it much easier to block another player inexpensively. They start a link you want to block, so build one tile per round for two rounds to block two separate entrances. I suppose the more common cause is starting a new link, getting it blocked before you can finish it, and then using your next two actions to build a different link instead.


I didn't think you could build a partial link of less than four tiles. That is, you either build a complete link between two cities, or you build four tiles on their way to becoming a link (one end is anchored to a city). Unfortunately, I don't have my copy of the rules available. Can someone confirm or deny this?
 
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Mik Svellov
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Kyellan wrote:
I didn't think you could build a partial link of less than four tiles. That is, you either build a complete link between two cities, or you build four tiles on their way to becoming a link (one end is anchored to a city). Unfortunately, I don't have my copy of the rules available. Can someone confirm or deny this?


You can build as little as you like in each action: 1, 2, 3 or 5 tiles. But they must all be connected to each other, and you must stop building as soon as your link to a city.


Here is a rundown of the rules - with clarifications:

Players place track tiles in an effort to connect cities.
Overall statement of what the use of this phase.

A tile or series of tiles that connect one city to
another is called a “Link”.

Clarification of a technical term.

When a player builds track, the ends of the track must match up so that the railroad forms a continuous line.
This rule apply to each individual action - but not to a player's entire railroad.

The first tile laid must either connect to a city or to the end of an incomplete link that the building player owns.
Again, this applies to each individual action. Not to the entire game.

All subsequent tiles laid during that action must then extend that link.
Same as above.

The player stops building when he has built 4 tiles in that link OR he has linked to another city.
Same as above.

Note that this means a player cannot build more
than one link in a single action.

Same.

If a player has placed four track tiles, but has not completed the link to the second city, the track is considered an “incomplete link”.
Again just a single link made in one action.

All incomplete links are removed at the end of the third round of each turn.
This is the first rule that applies to the entire turn and not just a single action. And it is just a repetition of a rule which appear again in phase 3 (page 8) where it is used.


Each track tile costs the player placing it a certain amount of money depending on the type of terrain in the hex where it is built. Building a straight or curve track in an “open” hex (green) costs $2,000, building it in a “hill” hex (light brown) costs $4,000. If a tile is placed so that it crosses a “ridge” (dark brown line along the side of the hex) then it costs an additional $4,000 when it is placed
This bit simply state the cost. I don't think people have problems understanding this.

If a tile is placed so that it crosses a “river” (blue line through a hex) then it costs an additional $1,000.
General statement of the cost of building track in a hex containing river.

If a tile is placed such that it follows the contour (shape) of the river and the two exit points of the track match that of the river then it is “following the river” and has no additional cost
This statement tells you that you don't have to pay the extra cost for the river when the track has the same entry and exit hexsides as the river. If not you must pay. A forked river does not have the same entry and exit points and neither does a river that "begins" in the hex.

As for the number of track that may be placed see the second example on page 6:
Incorrect. All track pieces connect to each other but do not connect to one of the cities. While a legal move, this does not complete a link between the two cities.
Note that it is legal to place just 3 track tiles and not connect to a city.

 
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John Bohrer
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Re: Railroad Tycoon - Does your entire RR have to be connect
Great Dane wrote:
You can build as little as you like in each action: 1, 2, 3 or 5 tiles. But they must all be connected to each other, and you must stop building as soon as your link to a city.


5 tiles, Mik?



John
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Mik Svellov
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John Bohrer wrote:
Great Dane wrote:
You can build as little as you like in each action: 1, 2, 3 or 5 tiles. But they must all be connected to each other, and you must stop building as soon as your link to a city.


5 tiles, Mik?


John
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Yes - with Perfect Engineering!
But you are right, I meant to write "4"
wow
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John Bohrer
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Re: Railroad Tycoon - Does your entire RR have to be connect
Great Dane wrote:
John Bohrer wrote:
Great Dane wrote:
You can build as little as you like in each action: 1, 2, 3 or 5 tiles. But they must all be connected to each other, and you must stop building as soon as your link to a city.


5 tiles, Mik?


John
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Yes - with Perfect Engineering!
But you are right, I meant to write "4"
wow


Nice save, Mik! Ganz Toll!
Anyway, it just demonstrates the difficulty in writing flawless rules, right? Hope to see you at Erik's in June to try my RT: Europe expansion.



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Quote:
Anyway, it just demonstrates the difficulty in writing flawless rules, right? Hope to see you at Erik's in June to try my RT: Europe expansion.


Europe? What about the Western USA? Just think, you could set up both boards together, on a really, really big table and add another 6 players to the mix.

Anyway, one thing is apparent about this system. Since the resource that matters the most (in the end) is the actions themselves, we have begun to learn that squandering valuable actions by "blocking" is almost a sure-fire method of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. In fact, it seems pointless to do so unless a blocking move is vital to an overall strategy or a specific points-giving situation, such as having the "longest train" tycoon card.

In our group of 5-9 regular RRT players the two most consistent winners never block, except in defense of a strategy and instead spend their actions building sufficient links and up grading their train high enough to score 5,6 and 7 point deliveries.

The Northest is less a blocking strategy than it is a race to connect. Usually, if a player wastes an action by, for example, blocking the last entrance to New York, other players can punish him severly on their turns by cutting him off from other vital cities.

BTW, this is still our #1 most requested game in our regular Thursday and Sunday groups.
 
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John Bohrer
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Re: Railroad Tycoon - Does your entire RR have to be connect
DWTripp wrote:
Quote:
Anyway, it just demonstrates the difficulty in writing flawless rules, right? Hope to see you at Erik's in June to try my RT: Europe expansion.


Europe? What about the Western USA? Just think, you could set up both boards together, on a really, really big table and add another 6 players to the mix.


Europe for a few reasons. First, it is already done, having made the map when I did the RT map. Second, Europe is a bigger market. Third, who actually has a table big enough to hold TWO Railroad Tycoon boards? Come on, DW, get a grip!

wow

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Third, who actually has a table big enough to hold TWO Railroad Tycoon boards? Come on, DW, get a grip!


Well John... I do.

Europe works for me though, that's something pleasant to look forward to. In addition, we played RRT last night and had a discussion about an expansion pack of cards, perhaps along the lines of the Runebound expansion packs. Perhaps to add to the mix or use as an alternative to the cards with the game.

Now, if I could just figure out how to win the frickin' game! I'm at 4 wins out of well over 20 plays at this point.
 
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John Bohrer
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DWTripp wrote:
Quote:
Third, who actually has a table big enough to hold TWO Railroad Tycoon boards? Come on, DW, get a grip!


Well John... I do.


Hmmm. While Winsome Games devotes itself to a very small market, DW, I have to draw the line at a market of one! Convince Glenn that it needs to be done and that is a different matter, no problem.

DWTripp wrote:
Europe works for me though, that's something pleasant to look forward to. In addition, we played RRT last night and had a discussion about an expansion pack of cards, perhaps along the lines of the Runebound expansion packs. Perhaps to add to the mix or use as an alternative to the cards with the game.


Hey, that is a nifty idea! Extra RT expansion decks would be cool.

DWTripp wrote:
Now, if I could just figure out how to win the frickin' game! I'm at 4 wins out of well over 20 plays at this point.


Glenn is the man to ask, he stuffed Martin, Keith and myself when we played together last GenCon. I am just a developer, winning games is bad for business!



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John Bohrer wrote:

DWTripp wrote:
Europe works for me though, that's something pleasant to look forward to. In addition, we played RRT last night and had a discussion about an expansion pack of cards, perhaps along the lines of the Runebound expansion packs. Perhaps to add to the mix or use as an alternative to the cards with the game.


Hey, that is a nifty idea! Extra RT expansion decks would be cool.

DWTripp wrote:
Now, if I could just figure out how to win the frickin' game! I'm at 4 wins out of well over 20 plays at this point.


Glenn is the man to ask, he stuffed Martin, Keith and myself when we played together last GenCon. I am just a developer, winning games is bad for business!



John
Pittsburgh


It'd probably be a value added feature for the gamers rather than a real money maker, but it would add even more replay value to the game.

After the New Year we're going to add extra city markers to the 4 and 5 player games and see if the game is as good being a bit longer. We've also toyed with the idea of adding extra product cubes in the Texas/Oklahoma area due to the fact that even in a six player game nobody ever goes there. Our 6-player sessions are over in 70-90 minutes and rarely does a Western Link get built.

Have a great New Year!
 
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John Bohrer
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Re: Railroad Tycoon - Does your entire RR have to be connect
DWTripp wrote:
Our 6-player sessions are over in 70-90 minutes and rarely does a Western Link get built.

Have a great New Year!


Yeah, our games always take less than 90 minutes, too.
I hope you sell a ton of RTs in the New Year, DW! Thanks!

meeple

John
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Re: Railroad Tycoon - Does your entire RR have to be connect
DWTripp wrote:
Quote:
Third, who actually has a table big enough to hold TWO Railroad Tycoon boards? Come on, DW, get a grip!


Well John... I do.

I know! John, if only table were made bigger I bet there would be a whole style of wargaming called monster gaming with maps as big as pool tables.

We play on 8'x8' boards too, DW. About time something other than a wargame gave those grognard only players some space competition...
 
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John Bohrer
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Re: Railroad Tycoon - Does your entire RR have to be connect
wtrollkin2000 wrote:
John, if only table were made bigger I bet there would be a whole style of wargaming called monster gaming with maps as big as pool tables.


And what a huge market it would be, Ray. My favorite in that genre is World in Flames (et al) called variously 'Weekend in Flames' or 'Wife in Flames' around here, using the 'Days of Indecision' add-on. We used to play it in Tom's garage until he got divorced. The good old days!

cool

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So is this going to be a Ticket to Ride type expansion where I have to shell out $60 for another complete game even though I already have most of the bits or is it going to be a Power Grid type expansion where I can just buy the map (and maybe some cards) and use the bits I already have? Obviously I prefer the later.
 
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Re: Railroad Tycoon - Does your entire RR have to be connect
mdp4828 wrote:
So is this going to be a Ticket to Ride type expansion where I have to shell out $60 for another complete game even though I already have most of the bits or is it going to be a Power Grid type expansion where I can just buy the map (and maybe some cards) and use the bits I already have? Obviously I prefer the later.


Right now, neither of the above. I am considering adding it to the next Winsome Games set available at the Essen Spielfest in October. I won't make a decision until August.

Don't worry, you won't be missing any nifty components! Folks don't buy our stuff 'cause of the nice bits, that's for sure. Our efforts are focused on new mechanisms, development and pacing. The Germans really appreciate our games. And the Austrians, Dutch, Swiss, etc.



John
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etherton wrote:
"The first tile laid must either connect to a city or to the end of an incomplete link that the building player owns."


I disagree.

I read this as "that the building player owns" as modifying BOTH "end of incomplete track" AND "a city". So, strictly according to the rules, all of one's RR must be connected (built from a track or city that you already own). That is the way the Computer game that this game is based on works, in any case. Also, it makes no verisimilitude sense to allow an entire train to jump from one section to another dis-joint section to make a delivery on disconnected rails even if it does require two actions.

-Dan
 
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Re: Railroad Tycoon - Does your entire RR have to be connect
dwfiv wrote:
etherton wrote:
"The first tile laid must either connect to a city or to the end of an incomplete link that the building player owns."


I disagree.

I read this as "that the building player owns" as modifying BOTH "end of incomplete track" AND "a city". So, strictly according to the rules, all of one's RR must be connected (built from a track or city that you already own). That is the way the Computer game that this game is based on works, in any case. Also, it makes no verisimilitude sense to allow an entire train to jump from one section to another dis-joint section to make a delivery on disconnected rails even if it does require two actions.

-Dan


But, players don't "own" cities, only links, so that phrase can't be modifing "city". You don't mark cities only lnks and building into a city does exclude otehr player for also conncting to that city. Thus you are reading it wrong.
 
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dwfiv wrote:
etherton wrote:
"The first tile laid must either connect to a city or to the end of an incomplete link that the building player owns."


I disagree.

I read this as "that the building player owns" as modifying BOTH "end of incomplete track" AND "a city". So, strictly according to the rules, all of one's RR must be connected (built from a track or city that you already own). That is the way the Computer game that this game is based on works, in any case. Also, it makes no verisimilitude sense to allow an entire train to jump from one section to another dis-joint section to make a delivery on disconnected rails even if it does require two actions.

-Dan


Nobody owns cities so, strictly according to the rules, all of one's RR need not be connected. The boardgame isn't really based very much on the computer game although it shares the name. It's based more on another board game called Age of Steam (in which, ironically, you must build continuous track - go figure). However, you're right in that one can't deliver goods across discontinuous track, not even for an infinite number of actions.
 
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