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Subject: Another success for gun therapy rss

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David desJardins
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No one could possibly have guessed that a day out at a shooting range wouldn't be a good way to deal with "battlefield scars".

‘American Sniper’ Author Shot to Death in Texas

Mr. Kyle, 38, author of the best-selling book “American Sniper: The Autobiography of the Most Lethal Sniper in U.S. Military History,” was with a struggling former soldier on just such an outing on Saturday, hoping that a day at a shooting range would bring some relief, said a friend, Travis Cox.

But the Texas authorities said Sunday that the troubled veteran turned on Mr. Kyle and a second man, Chad Littlefield, shooting and killing both before fleeing in a pickup truck.
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Boaty McBoatface
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All those armed people and a shooting not stopped, this can't be true.
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Rob
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David, I generally agree with a lot of things that you post in this forum. But even I can see that this post is unnecessarily provocative flamebait. I expected better.
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David desJardins
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What's the right amount of provocation when 40,000 people die each year? Is it more important that we not hurt anyone's feelings?
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Boaty McBoatface
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I think David does raise a valid point, the idea (as seemed to be the case here, and in at least one school shooting) that shooting is therapy for trauma or other mental health issues. When it could be argued (and I really find it hard to believe that even the most rabid gun rights activist can disagree) that people with mental health issues should be kept as far away from guns as possible. That this mans actions created this scenario, and that it was inevitable.
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Rob
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I made my comment for two reasons: 1) there are a number of threads on gun control and usage already in the forum, and 2) this one just offers up another incident without critical commentary, therefore... unnecesarily provocative.
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Boaty McBoatface
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Sinister Dexter wrote:
I made my comment for two reasons: 1) there's a number of threads on gun control and usage already in the forum, and 2) this one just offers up another incident without critical commentary, therefore... unnecesarily provocative.
I think that one of the issues that affect the gun safety threads is the fact that it all gets bundled together under the heading 'gun rights'. In truth each issue needs to be looked at on it's own merits, and not as part of some wider issue. Stopping nutters (in this case) being given guns by law abiding gun owners would have saved lives here. Where as an assault weapons ban may not (as we do not know what weapon he used). Thus it seems reasonable to discus this as a separate matter.
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Sinister Dexter wrote:
I made my comment for two reasons: 1) there's a number of threads on gun control and usage already in the forum, and 2) this one just offers up another incident without critical commentary, therefore... unnecesarily provocative.


Chris Kyle spent his own time and money working with vets and the emotional and psychological disorders many of them suffer from. I suppose you can challenge his methods or his qualifications, but not his empathy and willingness to give for the men and women who were negatively affected by combat. The guy was there for them.

I'm sure David, with his untold millions has contributed much more to the care of returning vets with mental, emotional and physical traumas. Even so, it's extremely uncool to use his murder as bait for whatever David's agenda might be.
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Kiren Maelwulf
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I read this story on another site and it was flooded with people posting comments along the lines of “you live by the gun you die by the gun.” While I think a few of Chris Kyle’s comments do show a rather twisted and detached view of the people he killed, I also think that in his position most people likely need to do something similar to cope. I know reading my grandfathers letters from WWI he sometimes sounds almost jovial about the experience.

For the most part though, Chris Kyle sound like he tried to help people in his time after serving. While I do think his idea of bringing struggling veterans to a shooting range probably wasn’t all that smart, he did seem to mean well. Rather than the gun control issue as a whole, I think this speaks more for one particular event that was the result of a flawed and ultimately fatal mindset.
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slatersteven wrote:
All those armed people and a shooting not stopped, this can't be true.


Typical. Get none of the facts but rush to RSP to grind moronically on whatever boogeyman you see in the shadows.

I recommend reading the articles. The circumstances are not what you think.
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DWTripp wrote:
Even so, it's extremely uncool to use his murder as bait for whatever David's agenda might be.

It does question the NRA's mantra that the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.
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jmilum wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
Even so, it's extremely uncool to use his murder as bait for whatever David's agenda might be.

It does question the NRA's mantra that the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.


What are you talking about Jer-Bear? Sheesh, you people are delusional.
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Boaty McBoatface
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DWTripp wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
All those armed people and a shooting not stopped, this can't be true.


Typical. Get none of the facts but rush to RSP to grind moronically on whatever boogeyman you see in the shadows.

I recommend reading the articles. The circumstances are not what you think.
So none of the victims had a gun, I have not seen that in any new story about this case. Are you telling me that they gave a man with severe emotional problems the only gun? Are you telling me that out of all those witnesses of the event (on a gun range) none were unarmed, I have not seen that mentioned anywhere. Of course in one respect you are correct, on a gun range no one is going to take notice of gun shots, yet two men were still killed (and I find no evidence they were not armed). This illustrates that guns do not prevent this kind of crime.
 
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Boaty McBoatface
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Kirenx wrote:
I read this story on another site and it was flooded with people posting comments along the lines of “you live by the gun you die by the gun.” While I think a few of Chris Kyle’s comments do show a rather twisted and detached view of the people he killed, I also think that in his position most people likely need to do something similar to cope. I know reading my grandfathers letters from WWI he sometimes sounds almost jovial about the experience.

For the most part though, Chris Kyle sound like he tried to help people in his time after serving. While I do think his idea of bringing struggling veterans to a shooting range probably wasn’t all that smart, he did seem to mean well. Rather than the gun control issue as a whole, I think this speaks more for one particular event that was the result of a flawed and ultimately fatal mindset.
This in essence is why I say this should not be discussed under a gun control banner.
 
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Boaty McBoatface
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DWTripp wrote:
Sinister Dexter wrote:
I made my comment for two reasons: 1) there's a number of threads on gun control and usage already in the forum, and 2) this one just offers up another incident without critical commentary, therefore... unnecesarily provocative.


Chris Kyle spent his own time and money working with vets and the emotional and psychological disorders many of them suffer from. I suppose you can challenge his methods or his qualifications, but not his empathy and willingness to give for the men and women who were negatively affected by combat. The guy was there for them.

I'm sure David, with his untold millions has contributed much more to the care of returning vets with mental, emotional and physical traumas. Even so, it's extremely uncool to use his murder as bait for whatever David's agenda might be.
I don't think any one is I think they are making the point that this was a very foolish thing to do, and that the result was a forgone conclusion, mental illness and guns do not mix well. Maybe David does have an anti-gun agenda, so would not the best course of action be to undermine his argument by not allowing this sort of fuckwited act. It does not mater how well intentioned someone is, what matters is the result, we can be thankful that he only shot 2 people. We can hope he did not have his own gun.
 
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Chris Kyle had great and noble intentions, and I can understand his wanting to reach out these disturbed soldiers, but I am not sure if dealing with PTS caused by combat by going shooting was the greatest of ideas.
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Boaty McBoatface
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MWChapel wrote:
Chris Kyle had great and noble intentions, and I can understand his wanting to reach out these disturbed soldiers, but I am not sure if dealing with PTS caused by combat by going shooting was the greatest of ideas.
Why not board games, now there is an idea.
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Mike Stiles
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slatersteven wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
All those armed people and a shooting not stopped, this can't be true.


Typical. Get none of the facts but rush to RSP to grind moronically on whatever boogeyman you see in the shadows.

I recommend reading the articles. The circumstances are not what you think.
So none of the victims had a gun, I have not seen that in any new story about this case. Are you telling me that they gave a man with severe emotional problems the only gun? Are you telling me that out of all those witnesses of the event (on a gun range) none were unarmed, I have not seen that mentioned anywhere. Of course in one respect you are correct, on a gun range no one is going to take notice of gun shots, yet two men were still killed (and I find no evidence they were not armed). This illustrates that guns do not prevent this kind of crime.


Don't you remember though? Having a gun makes you hyper-aware of your surroundings.

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David desJardins
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Sinister Dexter wrote:
I made my comment for two reasons: 1) there are a number of threads on gun control and usage already in the forum, and 2) this one just offers up another incident without critical commentary, therefore... unnecesarily provocative.


I did intend to offer a specific commentary. I apologize if I was too elliptical. I think people can engage in whatever recreations they want, but there are a million different activities that people can enjoy. Why pick the one that's associated with so many untimely deaths? I think it's a bad idea to choose, as your recreation, firing dangerous weapons. It's an even worse idea when you're dealing with people with mental problems.
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MWChapel wrote:
Chris Kyle had great and noble intentions, and I can understand his wanting to reach out these disturbed soldiers, but I am not sure if dealing with PTS caused by combat by going shooting was the greatest of ideas.


The only thing I'm going to contribute to this thread is that everyone handles PTSD differently. What someone might find Traumatic, another person might shrug it off as nothing.

WE know NOTHING about what exactly happened. I find it rather funny that people around here like to act all smart and enlightened, and yet so easily pass judgement without knowing the facts.
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Isaac Citrom
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MWChapel wrote:
Chris Kyle had great and noble intentions, and I can understand his wanting to reach out these disturbed soldiers, but I am not sure if dealing with PTS caused by combat by going shooting was the greatest of ideas.


Based on past experience I'm willing to bet that David will avow that his intent and subtext had nothing at all to do with gun control; that he posted the article strictly to point out the lack of wisdom of Mr. Kyle's method.

It occurred to me that psychiatric and psychological treatment of abnormal psychology is inherently dangerous. Sure enough, a few seconds on Google brought up, Threats and Assaults Against Psychiatrists (PDF)

The abstract from this Journal of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law article:

In this article, the authors review the literature on surveys pertaining to threats and assaults on psychiatrists and report the results of a questionnaire sent to Oregon psychiatrists. Although the responding psychiatrists were experienced clinicians, they appear to have had relatively little life experience with aggression. Assaults and threats were frequent in their careers, occurred across a variety of clinical settings, and involved a wide range of patients. The authors discuss specific strategies for psychiatrists to minimize the effects of patient threats and assaults and suggest ways in which organized psychiatry can help with the danger and sequelae of patient violence.


So, working with the mentally ill is dangerous. But, extending that, I have long questioned the politically correct attitude that the profession takes with respect to the mentally ill. My brother was held at knife-point right at his throat, at a coffee shop, by a random schizophrenic with a known history of violence. A man in Montreal was stabbed to death on his front lawn by a random passer-by, again another schizophrenic "off his meds." These are two examples immediately off the top of my head.

Taking one's medication is at the discretion of the mentally ill, and because the assumption is that they will take them, they are released into the general population.

This is an order of magnitude higher on my list of unwise things to do than what Mr. Kyle was trying to do. But then, one speaks to a socio-political agenda, while the other is a bizarre rare set of circumstances.
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David desJardins
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isaacc wrote:
Based on past experience I'm willing to bet that David will avow that his intent and subtext had nothing at all to do with gun control; that he posted the article strictly to point out the lack of wisdom of Mr. Kyle's method.


It's both. Kyle seems like an inspiring figure to me, but giving weapons to unstable people is a bad idea. He shouldn't have done it and our society shouldn't allow it.

Quote:
But, extending that, I have long questioned the politically correct attitude that the profession takes with respect to the mentally ill.


I'm not sure which profession you're talking about here. I think most psychiatrists would rather be able to require treatment for those who need it. It's the legislatures and the courts that have placed severe limits on that.
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David desJardins
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Alaren wrote:
Nobody is denying that guns are inherently dangerous. But it takes a special kind of stupid to believe that makes them inherently bad.


Good idea. All of us on all sides in RSP can make fun of the dumbass who said that.

Where is he?
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David desJardins
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Holy cow! I've got it. It's Alaren who thinks that guns are inherently bad! And he's trying to deflect attention from the foolishness of his view by attacking the foolishness of it, himself!

Clever plan. It almost worked!
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David desJardins
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Alaren wrote:
David, it is difficult to understand your meanderings on the best of days, but this time you've got me completely baffled. Wherever it is this discussion has taken your nearly-human mind, I cannot seem to follow. No, don't get up. I'll show myself out.


Are you willing to just tell us whom you were talking about who thinks that guns are inherently bad?

I admit I can't guess.
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