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Saboteur» Forums » General

Subject: Promo card suggestion rss

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Frederic Moyersoen
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The publisher asked me to design a promo card (distributed as a free give-away card).

The preference goes for a card which is usable for the basic game and for the expansion. As the card has to be playable with a new or a used set of cards, it would be better that the card is not secret. A brand new card will be easily detected among a used set.

Here is my first idea:

The Start player places the promo card anywhere on the game surface, except adjacent to the Start or a Destination card. The card must be placed face-up, in a specific authorised direction and at a specific location (i.e. 2 spaces above and 1 space left to the Start card).

The first player who manages to establish a link from the Start card to that card, gets immediately 1 gold point. This point is definitively acquired whether the concerned player wins the round or not.
When using the expansion, you may not establish the connection by placing a "ladder" card immediately adjacent to this card.

Before submitting this idea, I would appreciate your feedback. Besides, I would welcome any other suggestion.
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Adam Porter
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I like it.

It has the potential to really change player's motivation and dictate their actions in the game, whilst not being overpowered.

It will presumably advantage any Saboteurs, because the attempts to grab the gold will divert players away from their shared goal of reaching the goal.
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Mercedes (Mandy)
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This sounds like a lot of fun I agree with what Adam said. If I were the Saboteur that's what I would do hehe.

Another idea might be a Road Block card, a card that gets placed during the setup of the game, and cannot be moved. It's like an obstruction, and dwarfs have to build around it.

If it's possible to make a secret hidden card, here are some suggestions
Fools Goal(gold): Add the card you designed into the 3 goal cards instead. Which might mean a release of 3 new cards (1 original gold goal card, 1 non-gold goal card, 1 of your new cards)
Same as your idea. Players are still trying to race to the real Gold, but the first person to reach this can pick up 1 gold point. The game doesn't end if someone reaches this (1) gold card.

The chasm
Changing the goal cards and instead have the following
1 x Gold card (same as the original game)
1 x not gold card (same as the original game)
1 x chasm card (the first dwarf to reach this accidentally falls in the pit and is out)
The idea would be to try to deduce which is the goal before flipping over the card. Lots of mind games with this one.
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Mousey
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Sounds like fun this card.
I think I would but it somewhere halfway to the destination cards, so a bit further from the start card.
That way the saboteur advantage would be less.

Since it has to be a non secret card you could put a different shape on the other side.
How about a dead-end with a gold on the other side? Or a straight with a blue door on one side and a green door on the other side?
The b-side could even have different placement rules.
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Aingeru Malkav
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Hat Shop
Idea: "Dwarves change their hats"
(First or all) dwarf/dwarves that connect with the Hat Shop can (or must) take a new role card (from the left ones) and puts his/her previous role card in the deck.

The Hat Shop would be put in the middle of the table between the stairs and the gold nuggets (this way it could be interesting for the saboteur to go faster in order to change their role / or a miner that thinks they are going to lose could try a snapback. Also, maybe other player would like to avoid the card and would try to make another way...
 
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Frederic Moyersoen
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Yes, the promo card could be double sided. Thanks for the excellent suggestion.

Nevertheless, I would avoid to use a door as this is only usable for the expansion.

My suggestion would be this card. Chosing one of both sides is already an important choice for the first player.

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Dashiell Pinar
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really good idea, i love these cards !

it adds something to the gameplay (i d'ont own the expansion)
 
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Ben Greig
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looks like a great addition to the game, I would definitely seek out this card if it were made
 
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Frederic Moyersoen
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I've uploaded 3 card suggestions in the files thread. Check it in the coming days.


Now, you can print it out and give your feedback based on real playtests.

Poll
Which card combination do you prefer?
AB
BC
AC
      34 answers
Poll created by Frederic Moyersoen
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Yee Keat Phuah
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Frederic Moyersoen wrote:

The first player who manages to establish a link from the Start card to that card, gets immediately 1 gold point.


I do not own the expansion, but to make the risk factor higher, what about the player who reaches this card, goes out of the game immediately. So if either the dwarves or the saboteur feels that they are on the loosing end, they can opt to go for this one gold instead of no gold. But there's also some risk that if their team win, then they will loose out on the bigger gold distribution?
 
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Frederic Moyersoen
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I like your suggestion very much. It gives an extra twist to the use of the promo card.
Your suggestion fits the expansion without any problem, perhaps even more as your chances to win are mostly lower than 50%.

Of course, before being able to implement your suggestion, I must playtest it and get feedback from players.
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Frederic Moyersoen
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A first playtest reveals the following:

Players don't want to quit the round at the start of it and wait to reach the extra gold till it's clear that they will get no points at all. Therefore, the promo card can block an area of the game surface, which is too advantageous for the saboteurs.

It could be an interesting choice if you can win one or two extra points. Therefore, I've modified 2 cards a little bit.


It could be interesting that the player who reaches the extra gold can chose to quit or to remain in the game. As this choice is too advantageous to the start player, now the last player places the promo card.

To resume, here are the new rules:

Promo card suggestion - rules 1.1
The player at the right of the Start player places the promo card anywhere on the game surface, except adjacent to the Start or a Destination card. He can chose one side, one specific valid direction and one specific location (i.e. 2 spaces above and 1 space left to the Start card).
The first player who manages to establish a link from the Start card to this card, gets 1 or 2 gold points (as depicted on the card). The points are definitively acquired once the player decides (in his turn) to quit the round. On the other hand, if the player prefers to remain in the round till the end, he gets the extra points only when he wins.
When using the expansion, you may not establish the connection by placing a "ladder" card immediately adjacent to this card.

Poll
Which combination do you prefer?
AB
AC
      23 answers
Poll created by Frederic Moyersoen
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Julius Andrikonis
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Frederic Moyersoen wrote:
The first player who manages to establish a link from the Start card to this card, gets 1 or 2 gold points (as depicted on the card). The points are definitively acquired once the player decides (in his turn) to quit the round. On the other hand, if the player prefers to remain in the round till the end, he gets the extra points only when he wins.
When using the expansion, you may not establish the connection by placing a "ladder" card immediately adjacent to this card.


It seems to me that the rules are trying to say that the decision of either quit or continue can be made any time before the end of the round. The phrase "once the player decides (in his turn) to quit the round" is the one, which makes me think that way. Wouldn't that be easier to express in a list:
Quote:

The first player who manages to establish a link from the Start card to this card can choose either:
1. get 1 or 2 gold points (as depicted on the card) and quit the round.
2. continue the round till the end and get the extra points only if he wins.

Or am I missing something you are trying to say?

Thanks for doing this though.

EDITS: clarity, grammar.
 
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Frederic Moyersoen
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Your first intrepretation is the one that I've in mind.

At any time during the game you can decide to quit the game, but you can only make that decision when it's your turn to play.
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Frederic Moyersoen
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Here is a new version of the rules.
The changes (compared to version 1.1 have been put in bold).

Promo card suggestion - rules 1.2

The player at the right of the Start player places the promo card anywhere on the game surface, except adjacent to the Start or a Destination card. He can chose one side, one specific valid direction and one specific location (i.e. 2 spaces above and 1 space left to the Start card).

The first player who manages to establish a link from the Start card to this card, gets 1 or 2 gold points (as depicted on the card). Keep the points temporarily face-up.
The points are definitively acquired once the player decides to quit the round. He can announce to quit the round immediately or at the start of one of his subsequent turns. When you quit the round, put the acquired points facedown. Keep your role secret till the end of the round. You cannot get any extra point and you don't count for the distribution of points

On the other hand, if the player prefers to remain in the round till the end, he gets the extra points only when he wins.

When using the expansion, you may not establish the connection by placing a "ladder" card immediately adjacent to this card.

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Julius Andrikonis
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This variant of the rules is much clearer.
 
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Frederic Moyersoen
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After a new playtest,I must add one extra precision:

Promo card suggestion - rules 1.3

After receiving his role card, the player at the right of the Start player places the promo card anywhere on the game surface, except adjacent to the Start or a Destination card. He can chose one side, one specific valid direction and one specific location (i.e. 2 spaces above and 1 space left to the Start card).

The first player who manages to establish a link from the Start card to this card, gets 1 or 2 gold points (as depicted on the card). Keep the points temporarily face-up.
The points are definitively acquired once the player decides to quit the round. He can announce to quit the round immediately or at the start of one of his subsequent turns. When you quit the round, put the acquired points facedown. Keep your role secret till the end of the round. You cannot get any extra point and you don't count for the distribution of points

On the other hand, if the player prefers to remain in the round till the end, he gets the extra points only when he wins.

You may not play the "cave-in" card on the promo card to remove it.

When using the expansion, you may not establish the connection by placing a "ladder" card immediately adjacent to this card.
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Geert Vinaskov
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a)
Frederic Moyersoen wrote:
anywhere on the game surface


The game surface is nowhere defined. In fact, it goes indefinitaly in two dimensions. I suppose it's meant that the players place the promo-card in the 9x5 or 7x5 grid. The player to the right of the starting player can choose to place it behind the goal cards, or on the wrong side of the start card. If he is really malicious, he might place it 1000 places away, thus effectively getting rid of the card.

b)
Frederic Moyersoen wrote:
You cannot get any extra point and you don't count for the distribution of points

This rule makes it clear that I don't get to choose a gold card (saboteur 1), or I'm not counted when determining how many gold is distributed (saboteur 2). But what in the following cases?

In Saboteur 1, if they win, regular dwarfs distribute X gold cards, where X is equal to the number of players that are taking part in the game. (underlined part is "literally" translated from the dutch 999 rules, notice that it is written in present tense (deelnemen))

In Saboteur 1, if they win, saboteurs get 4/3/2 pieces of gold depending on the number of saboteurs that participated. (literally translated, past tense (meedeed))

In Saboteur 2, if both geologist are in the game, they divide the gold (literally translated, present tense (in het spel zijn)).

How does "you don't count for the distribution of points" interact with these? Maybe it's clearer/more intuitive to write "In all cases, you're considered part of the losing team, and you cannot get extra points." (still needs a note for the geologist, though)


c)
Geologists. They can either quit the game and cash the promo gold, or play until the game ends and cash their crystals. They can never get both. They are the only characters that cannot bóth profit from the promo gold ánd their regular income. edit: The profiteer, on the other hand, will always get both his regular income and the promo gold.

d)
When to quit the game? Regular dwarfs (saboteur 1) have it too easy. Quit the turn before the deck and player hands run out of cards. That's a non-decision for them. It's a consolation prize for regular dwarves (saboteur 1), they either get both or get the promo gold.

Saboteurs (saboteur 1) have it a lot thougher. Their loss comes unexpected, in the endgame (right before the regular dwarves might be able to reach the gold) they must risk if it's worth to place one more difficult card to make it harder to reach the goal, or just cash in their promo gold. In the first instance they might lose both rewards, in the second instance they get the promo-gold, but give the game away to the regular dwarves (which is less fun than putting up a good last fight).

Since about 3 out of 4 players are regular dwarves, in 75% of the time in saboteur 1 the promo gold will be picked up by regular dwarves, giving them a non-decision, meaning they will always get the promo-gold. The saboteurs are not sure at all if they will get the promo-gold. Saboteurs are having a hard time already, and this makes being a saboteur even worse, since in 75% of the times regular dwarves get free promo-gold, while saboteurs are not sure if they are going to receive it.

On top of that: Since only the saboteurs have to make a though decision when they are getting close to the gold, it may be easy to spot them. Someone picked up the promo-card, and he is doubting when to quit? Must be a saboteur.

I apologize if this sounded as a rant.

e)
Frankly, the "choose to quit or don't get gold" adds rule and game complexity. Saboteur is an elegant, low-entry game and I don't feel the "choose to quit or don't get gold" is adding enough fun.

The rest of the card/concept is great. I especially like the 1 gold dead end and bend version.


EDIT:

Frederic Moyersoen wrote:
Besides, I would welcome any other suggestion.

You could add a logo on the cards, in the same way as the 2 in Saboteur 2. Maybe a birthdaycandle or something?

Since the card is doublesided, you can use the same concept on the other side of the card, but instead of getting one or two extra gold, you can give a special one-time power to the player who reaches it first. For instance: the first player who reaches this card can search the draw deck for one card instead of drawing a card at the end of his turn.
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Frederic Moyersoen
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Geert Vinaskov wrote:
a)
Frederic Moyersoen wrote:
anywhere on the game surface


The game surface is nowhere defined.


If you want that the card has an impact on the game, you have to select an interesting position. Therefore, I prefer that you can choose any position that you want.
Playtests revealed that the card is mostly placed somewhere in the centre of the game surface.

Geert Vinaskov wrote:

b)
Frederic Moyersoen wrote:
You cannot get any extra point and you don't count for the distribution of points

This rule makes it clear that I don't get to choose a gold card (saboteur 1), or I'm not counted when determining how many gold is distributed (saboteur 2). But what in the following cases?

In Saboteur 1, if they win, regular dwarfs ...

In Saboteur 1, if they win, saboteurs ...
In Saboteur 2, if both geologist ...

How does "you don't count for the distribution of points" interact with these?


The idea is that you are completely neglected when distributing the gold. The rules of this new card supersede the original rules.

c) To simplify, I would not like to make an exception for the geologists who can stay in the game at no risk.
Geert Vinaskov wrote:

d)
When to quit the game?


I agree with your observations, but before thinking of quitting the game, you must imagine how you can reach first the promo card.
Playtests revealed that this can be tough if nobody is so kind to place the right card to allow the next player to connect to the promo card.
The most effective way is to sabotage all opponents and establish the connection while the others are trying to repair their equipment.

Geert Vinaskov wrote:

e)I don't feel the "choose to quit or don't get gold" is adding enough fun.

This must be playtested. My impression for the moment is rather positive (based on several playtests with Saboteur 2).

Geert Vinaskov wrote:


... you can give a special one-time power to the player who reaches it first. For instance: the first player who reaches this card can search the draw deck for one card instead of drawing a card at the end of his turn.

This is a nice variation to think about.
 
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Geert Vinaskov
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Hi Frederic. I like Saboteur a lot, and promote it often amongst friends. We playtested the promocard, using saboteur 1 rules. This is what came up, I hope you find it useful.

We played with four people using the saboteur 1 rules. We always used the threeway with two gold, since there's a crystal card from saboteur 2 with that layout. We didn't keep scores between rounds.

During the first we placed the card in the middle. It became soon clear that it's a major hindrance. We moved around it, and after a few turns one player placed a card so the promo-card was reachable, but only with the use of a specific card. Unfortunately for her, another player had that card.

During the second round the rule was used that the player to the right of the starting player can choose where it's placed. Since we are paranoid saboteur-hunters and any behaviour that is even remotely saboteurisly is considered suspicious, another player said: don't place it in the middle, it only benefits the saboteur, so he moved it "3 to the left" (if the starting card and the middle goal card are in position 0, then 3 places to the left), meaning you can build a straight row from the starting card to the middle goal card and give no one an opportunity to take it with just one card. Another player asked: "Is this allowed? It's out of the playing field." The placing player: "There are no limits to the playing field." "What, so you can place it somewhere where it has no effect at all?, let's houserule this."

So for this and the next few rounds the card was placed in positions like 1up 2left, 3up 2right,... thus minimizing it. Placing it in the middle-middle would make it obvious you're a saboteur. The promocard was taken once.

The last two rounds we played with the promocard in the middle-middle of the field, since we felt we just evaded it before, and wasn't really part of the game. Of those two rounds, the promo-card was picked up once.


The strategy for going after the promocard was waiting until the endgame, when the saboteur was known, and his tools broken. Possibly the tools of another dwarf were broken too. At the endgame, when we had a lot of not-so-useful cards, we tried to place cards in the vicinity of the promo-card so that we could only reach it with a specific card (that we conviniently had in our hands) and hoping another player didn't have that card.


The promocard (if picked up) was picked up by golddiggers each time. Golddiggers won each game. The "quit-or-you-don't-get-the-promo-gold" didn't come into play (since the saboteur never picked up the promocard).


Opinions of the players:
-Fun, gives you something to do with cards that aren't that useful.
-Fun, the puzzling aspect trying to connect the promo (while at the same time making it hard for your rivals to reach it) is more interesting than the common "straight line to the gold"
-Promocard wasn't useful, little effect on gameplay
-Nice, but not overwhelmed. It made the field and played cave-cards more varied, which is a good thing.
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Frederic Moyersoen
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Last news from Essen.

The promo-card is in production and will be distributed in 2014.
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Julius Andrikonis
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Frederic Moyersoen wrote:
Last news from Essen.

The promo-card is in production and will be distributed in 2014.


Fantastic news. And can you already tell how it will be distributed?
 
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Frederic Moyersoen
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Two main distribution ways:
1) At fairs, like Essen.
2) When buying a (Saboteur) game in your local shop.

However, as Saboteur is a game with a distribution over the whole world, every distribution partner has the autonomy to organise his own distribution method.

The 3 promo-cards are considered to be a free give-away. By the way, that's why we call it "promo".

Nevertheless, although the printing numbers are a multiplier of 10 000, the available stock will be, of course, limited. With some luck, it will become a collector's item.

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Daniel Maioni
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Frederic Moyersoen wrote:

The points are definitively acquired once the player decides to quit the round. He can announce to quit the round immediately or at the start of one of his subsequent turns. When you quit the round, put the acquired points facedown. Keep your role secret till the end of the round. You cannot get any extra point and you don't count for the distribution of points


What happens when I face-down the card? Will it blocks the way? Or the card remains in the game like being face-up?

ie. I reach the gold card, and decide to quit other time in my turn, but that gold card is part of the route to the goal. If the card goes face-down what happens to the route?

Is it interrupted? Or nothing happens and it is like the same be face up or face down?
 
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Frederic Moyersoen
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You have to put your points (cards or tokens) facedown, not the Path card.
 
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