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Descent: Journeys in the Dark» Forums » Rules

Subject: Can you attack two monsters in the same spot with Guard? rss

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Eivind Olsen
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If a hero has placed a Guard-order and wants to use it, can he attack two monsters in the same spot?

As I understand the rules, when you attack you attack a square on the floor, not a monster. But the Guard can be used anytime, so if it's being used when the overlord moves a monster through another, there's a time where there are two monsters in the same spot.

Regards
Eivind Olsen
 
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Greg
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I'm afraid it is only one monster per turn regardless of what squares the monster or monsters pass through. When dodging, this can be used multiple times each turn though. Hope this helps.
 
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Dexblair .
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maybe legal to attack.
but i'll not allow heroes to do that, i will tell them, all figures must stop/end at empty space/square. even with Guard, they have to wait till the figure into empty space.

happy new year.
 
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Matthew M
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dexblair wrote:
maybe legal to attack.
but i'll not allow heroes to do that, i will tell them, all figures must stop/end at empty space/square. even with Guard, they have to wait till the figure into empty space.

happy new year.


Such a restriction isn't necessary, and is contrary to the rules that state that the Hero can interrupt the Overlord at any point. There are probably some rare occasions where it actually makes a difference (possible effects of weapons with Blast, for example)

-MMM
 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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This is from DOOM: The Boardgame FAQ (same creator, similar rules-game):

Quote:
Q: Assume the invader player is moving a figure and
moves it into a space occupied by another invader figure,
intending to pass through (since the moving figure can’t
end its movement in an already occupied space). At that
moment, the marine player uses a Guard order to attack
that space. Does the attack affect both figures?

A: In DOOM, you’re actually attacking a space, and affecting
all figures in that space. If the invader player is foolish enough
to present you with overlapped figures like that while you’ve
got a marine on guard, you can attack all of the overlapped
figures at once.


Considering the rule is identical in both games, you could just as easily replace 'invader' with 'overlord', and 'marine' with 'hero'. I.e. like this:

Quote:
Q: Assume the overlord player is moving a figure and
moves it into a space occupied by another overlord figure,
intending to pass through (since the moving figure can’t
end its movement in an already occupied space). At that
moment, the hero player uses a Guard order to attack
that space. Does the attack affect both figures?

A: In Descent, you’re actually attacking a space, and affecting
all figures in that space. If the overlord player is foolish enough
to present you with overlapped figures like that while you’ve
got a hero on guard, you can attack all of the overlapped
figures at once.


-shnar
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James
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Interesting. Well done ShNar!
 
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Kirk Monsen
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shnar wrote:
This is from DOOM: The Boardgame FAQ (same creator, similar rules-game):

Quote:
Q: Assume the invader player is moving a figure and
moves it into a space occupied by another invader figure,
intending to pass through (since the moving figure can’t
end its movement in an already occupied space). At that
moment, the marine player uses a Guard order to attack
that space. Does the attack affect both figures?

A: In DOOM, you’re actually attacking a space, and affecting
all figures in that space. If the invader player is foolish enough
to present you with overlapped figures like that while you’ve
got a marine on guard, you can attack all of the overlapped
figures at once.


Considering the rule is identical in both games, you could just as easily replace 'invader' with 'overlord', and 'marine' with 'hero'. I.e. like this:

Quote:
Q: Assume the overlord player is moving a figure and
moves it into a space occupied by another overlord figure,
intending to pass through (since the moving figure can’t
end its movement in an already occupied space). At that
moment, the hero player uses a Guard order to attack
that space. Does the attack affect both figures?

A: In Descent, you’re actually attacking a space, and affecting
all figures in that space. If the overlord player is foolish enough
to present you with overlapped figures like that while you’ve
got a hero on guard, you can attack all of the overlapped
figures at once.


-shnar


If the rules are the same, please cite them (specifically all combat rules) so that someone not familiar with Doom can make an informed consent.

-Munch "if this was as cut and dry like this, why hasn't the designer said so on his board when the issue was raised?" Wolf
 
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Gilles Duchesne
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MunchWolf wrote:
If the rules are the same, please cite them (specifically all combat rules) so that someone not familiar with Doom can make an informed consent.

If you're working with the assumption that the Doom attack rules are as complex as the Descent ones, doesn't it make a rather large quote?

I suggest starting with this instead:
Descent Rulebook wrote:
Attack Sequence
Whether the attacker is a hero or a monster, all attacks follow these steps:
Step 1: Declare Attack
Step 2: Confirm Line of Sight
Step 3: Count Range and Roll Attack
Step 4: Spend Power Surges, Power Enhancements, and Fatigue
Step 5: Determine Attack Success
Step 6: Inflict Wounds

Doom Rulebook wrote:
Attacking
Every attack (for marines and invaders both) follows these steps:
Step 1: Declare Attack
Step 2: Confirm Line of Sight
Step 3: Count Range and Roll Attack
Step 4: Determine Attack Success
Step 5: Inflict Wounds

(The entire concept of power die was new to Descent.)

Beyond that, you can read the whole rules from the FFG PDF:
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/PDF/doomrules.pdf

MunchWolf wrote:
"if this was as cut and dry like this, why hasn't the designer said so on his board when the issue was raised?" Wolf

Good point... and yet, as we've seen lately, there are many things that seem like "common knowledge" and that people don't actually agree on (and still not FAQ'ed).
 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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MunchWolf wrote:
If the rules are the same, please cite them (specifically all combat rules) so that someone not familiar with Doom can make an informed consent.


That would be a little difficult, considering there are many places in the manuals you have to look (combat, guard, movement, etc). However, here are the manuals online, if the reader prefers to review the manuals themselves:

Doom: http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/PDF/doomrules.pdf
Descent: http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/PDF/descentrules.pdf


To demonstrate how similar the games are (and specifically how identical this specific situation is), here's at least the Guard Order quotes from both manuals:

Doom:
Quote:
GUARD
A marine that has placed a guard order may make an interrupt attack.

At any point during the invader player's turn, a marine may discard his guard order to immediately interrupt the invader player's turn and make one attack (following all the normal rules for line of sight and attacking). The invader player's turn is immediately halted (even if the invader player was about to attack with an invader figure), allowing the marine to resolve his interrupt attack. After the interrupt attack is completed and any casualties are removed, the invader player may continue his turn.

The invader player must allow for an interrupt attack at any time, and must reverse any movement/attack if it was made too fast for the marine player to have a chance to declare an interrupt attack. If a marine player declines to make an interrupt attack, however, he may not change his mind later.

A guard order stays with a marine until discarded by one of the following events: 1) the marine takes 1 or more wounds, 2) the beginning of the marine’s next turn,or 3) the marine discards the order to make an interrupt attack.


Descent:
Quote:
Guard
A hero that has placed a guard order may make an interrupt attack.

At any point during the overlord player’s turn (not during a hero's turn), a hero may use his guard order to immediately "interrupt" the overlord player’s turn and make one attack (following all the normal rules for line of sight and attacking). The overlord player's turn is immediately halted (even if the overlord player was about to attack with a monster), allowing the hero to resolve his interrupt attack. After the interrupt attack is completed and any casualties are removed, the overlord player may continue his turn.

The overlord player must allow for an interrupt attack at any time, and must reverse any movement/attack if it was made too fast for the hero player to have a chance to declare an interrupt attack. If a hero player declines to make an interrupt attack, however, he may not change
his mind later.

A guard order stays with a hero until removed by one of the following events: 1) the hero takes one or more wounds, 2) the beginning of the hero’s next turn, or 3) the hero uses the order to make an interrupt attack.



Other than the nomaclature differences (i.e. Invader vs. Overlord, Marine vs. Hero) these two quotes are practically identical.


MunchWolf wrote:

-Munch "if this was as cut and dry like this, why hasn't the designer said so on his board when the issue was raised?" Wolf


Most likely because he's already felt that he has made it clear and figures people can use common sense and see that the situations are identical, the same ruling can be applied. Or, more likely, he has better things to do than read every post on every board

-shnar
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Charles Mead
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MunchWolf wrote:
shnar wrote:
This is from DOOM: The Boardgame FAQ (same creator, similar rules-game):

Quote:
Q: Assume the invader player is moving a figure and
moves it into a space occupied by another invader figure,
intending to pass through (since the moving figure can’t
end its movement in an already occupied space). At that
moment, the marine player uses a Guard order to attack
that space. Does the attack affect both figures?

A: In DOOM, you’re actually attacking a space, and affecting
all figures in that space. If the invader player is foolish enough
to present you with overlapped figures like that while you’ve
got a marine on guard, you can attack all of the overlapped
figures at once.


Considering the rule is identical in both games, you could just as easily replace 'invader' with 'overlord', and 'marine' with 'hero'. I.e. like this:

Quote:
Q: Assume the overlord player is moving a figure and
moves it into a space occupied by another overlord figure,
intending to pass through (since the moving figure can’t
end its movement in an already occupied space). At that
moment, the hero player uses a Guard order to attack
that space. Does the attack affect both figures?

A: In Descent, you’re actually attacking a space, and affecting
all figures in that space. If the overlord player is foolish enough
to present you with overlapped figures like that while you’ve
got a hero on guard, you can attack all of the overlapped
figures at once.


-shnar


If the rules are the same, please cite them (specifically all combat rules) so that someone not familiar with Doom can make an informed consent.

-Munch "if this was as cut and dry like this, why hasn't the designer said so on his board when the issue was raised?" Wolf


The assumption this relies on is that Descent is like Doom where you attack "spaces". However, the first paragraph under the "Attacking" heading on page 9 indicates that you actually attack figures in Descent:
"Each turn, a hero or monster may make one or more attacks against other figures on the board."

 
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Corbon Loughnan
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ChazM wrote:

The assumption this relies on is that Descent is like Doom where you attack "spaces". However, the first paragraph under the "Attacking" heading on page 9 indicates that you actually attack figures in Descent:
"Each turn, a hero or monster may make one or more attacks against other figures on the board."



Sorry, bad quote...
Attacks are actually made against spaces, not figures.

DJitD pg9
Step 1: Declare Attack
The attacking player declares which space his figure is attacking.

Pg11
Melee Attacks: Melee attacks can only be declared
against adjacent spaces ...
Ranged Attacks: Ranged attacks can be declared
against any space to which the attacker has a line of
sight...
Magic Attacks: Magic attacks can be declared against
any space to which the attacker has a line of sight

Pg22
Attacks with the Blast ability affect every space within
X spaces of the target space,...
Attacks with the Breath ability use the Breath template
to determine which spaces they affect.

(all quotes cut and paste (bold added) from rules pdf downloaded from FFG's website)

FAQ pg5
Q: Can heroes attack an empty square? For example, could a blast effect be centered in an empty square or could a hero fire his Staff of Knowledge off into a corner to burn the overlord’s threat?
A: Yes. However, if after spending surges there are no valid targets in the area of the attack (hero or monster), the entire attack is canceled without effect. This means that if the blast is not large enough, the attack fails, and the Staff of Knowledge must actually hit something to use its ability.


Anyway, the original question is directly answered in the GLOAQ (Gathered List Of Answered (by FFG staff) Questions) on the FFG official forum.

Guard
Can a creature’s movement be halted by a Guard call while it is in the space of another creature? If so, are both creatures now legal targets for a Single Target (Non AoE) attack? And how would damage be dealt?

If the OL is foolish enough to have more than one monster in the same space in front of a hero with guard, then yes, the hero can attack both monsters in that space at once with a single attack. This is a pretty rare case, however, in that it only applies during the OL's turn when he's moving monsters through each other. After all, monsters cannot end their movement on the same space as another monster.
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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Yeah, I kind of thought it was funny that Kevin basically copy/pasted the Doom version and replaced with Descent words

-shnar
 
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