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Subject: Confusion about conditional abilities... checking the condition. rss

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Adrian Breuch
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A short discussion confused me... originaly posted in here http://boardgamegeek.com/article/11285202#11285202
Zyankalium wrote:
Kandiru wrote:
The issue of Femme Fatale and Tollboth is specifically dealt with by the bypass rules. Bypass says you skip the encounter AND prevent any pending effects which triggered on encountering that ICE.

At the moment, there is no card that can skip an encounter.
Bypass just stops an encounter and with both cards (Femme Fatale and Inside Job) you have to encounter an ICE to use the bypass efect.
Tuism wrote:
Each trigger happens at its own time. Runners' effects happen first.

Encoutner ICE -> Runner's "On encouter" effects triggers first, in this example: bypass -> Corp's "On encounter" effects can't triger any more, because the ICE is no longer encountered.

Jadiel wrote:
Zyankalium wrote:
Sorry for Off Topic... but:
Encoutner ICE -> Runner's "On encouter" effects triggers first, in this example: bypass -> Corp's "On encounter" effects can't triger any more, because the ICE is no longer encountered.

Be careful with this logic. As far as I know, bypass effects are unusual in that they check their conditions on resolution. With all other effects in the game, the fact that the trigger condition is no longer true on resolution doesn't stop them resolving anyway.

Kandiru wrote:
Zyankalium wrote:
Encounter ICE -> Runner's "On encounter" effects triggers first, in this example: bypass -> Corp's "On encounter" effects can't trigger any more, because the ICE is no longer encountered.

The Rules of Bypass specifically prevent the other on encounter effects from triggering, rather than simply the fact you aren't encountering the ICE any more. If you run into a DataRaven and JackOut as a response to the "On Encounter" any other pending "On Encounter" effects (if there were any) could still trigger:
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/android-netrun...
FAQ wrote:

“Bypass”
When an effect allows the Runner to “bypass” a piece of ice,
he immediately passes that ice and continues the run. Any
subroutines on the ice bypassed are not broken. Bypassing
prevents any unresolved conditional abilities that met their
trigger condition when the ice was encountered from resolving.

Zyankalium wrote:
Kandiru wrote:
If you run into a DataRaven and JackOut as a response to the "On Encounter" any other pending "On Encounter" effects (if there were any) could still trigger

If a runner's card with a "On Encounter" effect lets the runner JackOut... why would DataTaven's On Encounter trigger?

In my understanding, in the momnet, the Corp is allowed to use "On Encounter" effects, the condition is no longer met and therefore won't trigger.


So... does a conditional ability trigger, if the condition is no longer met, after resolving prior abilities?
 
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Andy Mills
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If the runner had an ability that let them jack out upon encountering Data Raven (no such effect currently exists) then Data Raven's "on encounter" effect would NOT trigger.

There is a linguistic wrinkle here that is complicating matters - if you encounter Data Raven, you get the choice to take a tag or end the run. If you choose to end the run, you HAVE NOT "jacked out". If the corporation has other "on encounter" effects that they want to trigger, they will need to trigger them before Data Raven's - once the runner chooses to end the run, that's it. They're no longer encountering the ice. They're done. Chum will still deal damage, though - Chum's trigger condition was imposed *before* the ice was encountered, and triggers *after* the ice is finished being encountered (this is the same reason a bypass effect will also not let you escape from Chum).

I'm having a hard time parsing your question, since it is so general. But if I'm understanding you properly, conditional abilities will trigger when their conditions are met. Resolving prior abilities should not matter, because (unless I'm misunderstanding) there cannot be an ability that resolves between a conditional effect's conditions being met and the effect resolving.
 
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Eric F
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Zyankalium wrote:
A short discussion confused me... originaly posted in here http://boardgamegeek.com/article/11285202#11285202...

So... does a conditional ability trigger, if the condition is no longer met, after resolving prior abilities?


This is actually one rules thing that bothers me, but it's fine (mostly because I eat both ends of the spectrum as Criminal and NBN)...

There is a ruling (I want to dig through all the threads, but can't find it) that specifically explains bypass mechanics in relation to "When encountered" ICE, and was part of the reason for the FAQ's clarification.

This is how it works.

1) You encounter ICE. ICE "When encountered" prompts trigger (Data Raven tag or ETR).
2) ICE you are encountering has a Femme Fatale counter on it. Femme Fatale "When encountered" prompt triggers.
3) Because you are the active player, all your effects resolve first. At this point, you pay 1 credit for the 1 sub on Data Raven.
4) The encounter now ends; you bypass the ICE.
5) There is no "stack" (if you're familiar with MTG), and you are no longer encountering Data Raven. Its condition is invalid, and does not trigger.

===

Another one of these is that Subroutines on ICE that are trashed do not fire. Sensei > Data Mine does not combo.

1) Sensei's subroutine fires. (assuming not broken)
2) Sensei applies an ETR subroutine to Data Mine.
3) Data Mine's first subroutine fires. Data Mine is trashed.
4) Data Mine is no longer around to fire its added "Sensei ETR" subroutine.

===

The consistent behavior in this is "if the source of the effect leaves play or is bypassed, none of those effects happen," with the keyword "bypass" being the exception to focus on in this case.

===

Here's a good example as well of this sort of ruling taking multiple precedence, and this has been also ruled officially.

Femme Fatale.
Chum > Data Raven.
Raven has the FF counter.

1) Chum is encountered, it's sub is not broken. Data Raven is buffed.
2) Data Raven is encountered. Tag or ETR. Chum's precondition is met.
3) ICE with an FF counter is encountered. Pay 1 credit to bypass the ICE.
4) Chum's effect triggers; you encountered Data Raven, but did not break all of its subroutines. You take 3 net damage.
5) Data Raven was encountered AND bypassed; its "when encountered" ability does NOT trigger.

===

The consistent behavior in this is "if the source of the effect leaves play or is bypassed, none of those effects happen," with the keyword "bypass" being the exception to focus on in this case...unless I am mistaken and someone wants to find the logical holes/rulings/issues with this.

EDIT: Another Followup, it's the rules question right under this thread, at almost the same time:

Same setup.

1) Chum sub fires.
2) Runner Encounters Data Raven, and does not use the FF ability.
3) Data Raven's "when encounter" triggers. Take a tag or ETR.
4) Chum's precondition is met; the ICE is encountered.
5) Runner decides to ETR.
6) Chum's precondition is met; all subs on the encountered ICE were not broken.
7) All of Chum's preconditions have been met; the effect triggers, dealing 3 net damage.
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Ony Moose
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FFG FAQ wrote:

“Bypass”
When an effect allows the Runner to “bypass” a piece of ice,
he immediately passes that ice and continues the run. Any
subroutines on the ice bypassed are not broken. Bypassing
prevents any unresolved conditional abilities that met their
trigger condition when the ice was encountered from resolving.


The FAQ officially states that bypassing prevents any conditional abilities which triggered off encounting the ICE from resolving. I don't know if this is a special part of bypass, or if this is applicable in general.
 
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Eric F
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Kandiru wrote:
FFG FAQ wrote:

“Bypass”
When an effect allows the Runner to “bypass” a piece of ice,
he immediately passes that ice and continues the run. Any
subroutines on the ice bypassed are not broken. Bypassing
prevents any unresolved conditional abilities that met their
trigger condition when the ice was encountered from resolving.


The FAQ officially states that bypassing prevents any conditional abilities which triggered off encounting the ICE from resolving. I don't know if this is a special part of bypass, or if this is applicable in general.


Special, for Bypass only.

Case in point, as ruled:

Femme Fatale
Chum + Data Raven (FF) example I stated above.
 
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Jeremy Larner
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ignisphaseone wrote:
Kandiru wrote:
FFG FAQ wrote:

“Bypass”
When an effect allows the Runner to “bypass” a piece of ice,
he immediately passes that ice and continues the run. Any
subroutines on the ice bypassed are not broken. Bypassing
prevents any unresolved conditional abilities that met their
trigger condition when the ice was encountered from resolving.


The FAQ officially states that bypassing prevents any conditional abilities which triggered off encounting the ICE from resolving. I don't know if this is a special part of bypass, or if this is applicable in general.


Special, for Bypass only.

Case in point, as ruled:

Femme Fatale
Chum + Data Raven (FF) example I stated above.


Can you give an example of a conditional ability which would go off even if it's trigger was no longer true when it resolved?
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David Jensen
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The FAQ states you bypass the ICE instead of encountering it.

Chums abilities don't trigger on the bypassed ICE. This assumes the ICE is in the following order:

CHUM - Not Broken
TOLLBOOTH - Bypassed by FF
Conclusion: Chum is not broken but has no effect since the 'next ICE encountered' is not encountered but bypassed


Now; we need some clarification if the following occurs:

Chum - Not Broken
TOLLBOOTH - Bypassed by FF
- Recieves Chum buff and must be encountered as usual.
 
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Jeremy Larner
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notyetsuperman wrote:
The FAQ states you bypass the ICE instead of encountering it.

Chums abilities don't trigger on the bypassed ICE. This assumes the ICE is in the following order:

CHUM - Not Broken
TOLLBOOTH - Bypassed by FF
Conclusion: Chum is not broken but has no effect since the 'next ICE encountered' is not encountered but bypassed


Now; we need some clarification if the following occurs:

Chum - Not Broken
TOLLBOOTH - Bypassed by FF
- Recieves Chum buff and must be encountered as usual.


This has been clarified already. Chum is a constant ability, and therefore takes effect before FF. If you bypass with FF, you take damage from Chum.
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David Jensen
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Quote:
Can you give an example of a conditional ability which would go off even if it's trigger was no longer true when it resolved?


I believe you are overthinking this.

Bypassing [using Femme Fatal] prevents [the following:]
any unresolved conditional abilities [Tollbooth 3c Fee] that met their trigger condition when the ice was encountered [the moment the ICE is encountered it normally resolves]
from resolving.

In short, bypassing prevents (all that up there) from resolving.




 
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David Jensen
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Jadiel wrote:
notyetsuperman wrote:
The FAQ states you bypass the ICE instead of encountering it.

Chums abilities don't trigger on the bypassed ICE. This assumes the ICE is in the following order:

CHUM - Not Broken
TOLLBOOTH - Bypassed by FF
Conclusion: Chum is not broken but has no effect since the 'next ICE encountered' is not encountered but bypassed


Now; we need some clarification if the following occurs:

Chum - Not Broken
TOLLBOOTH - Bypassed by FF
- Recieves Chum buff and must be encountered as usual.


This has been clarified already. Chum is a constant ability, and therefore takes effect before FF. If you bypass with FF, you take damage from Chum.
I STAND CORRECTED AND APOLOGIZE FOR ADDING TO THE CONFUSION


There's some disagreement about how Chum interacts with ICE that is bypassable. For example:

ICE #1 is Chum. The runner does not break its subroutines.
ICE #2 is the ice that Femme Fatale may pay to bypass.

Assuming the runner pays to bypass ICE #2 with Femme Fatale, does the runner then take damage from Chum?"

Lukas replied:

"Thanks for the question. Yes, the Runner will still take damage from Chum since the ice was encountered, and bypassing does not break subroutines."



This is an incorrect interpretation of Chum + Bypass. Chum states the next peice of ICE encountered [effect]. However, the next piece of ICE is not encoutered, it's bypassed.
 
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Andy Mills
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notyetsuperman wrote:
The FAQ states you bypass the ICE instead of encountering it.

Chums abilities don't trigger on the bypassed ICE. This assumes the ICE is in the following order:

CHUM - Not Broken
TOLLBOOTH - Bypassed by FF
Conclusion: Chum is not broken but has no effect since the 'next ICE encountered' is not encountered but bypassed


Now; we need some clarification if the following occurs:

Chum - Not Broken
TOLLBOOTH - Bypassed by FF
- Recieves Chum buff and must be encountered as usual.


Your conclusion is entirely incorrect, and has been clarified by FFG.

If Chum is not broken, and Tollbooth is bypassed by FF, you take 3 net damage and move on to the next ice.

If Chum is not broken, and Tollbooth is NOT bypassed, and you cannot pay the 3 credits, you take 3 net damage and the run ends.

Also, drink!
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Andy Mills
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notyetsuperman wrote:

This is an incorrect interpretation of Chum + Bypass. Chum states the next peice of ICE encountered [effect]. However, the next piece of ICE is not encoutered, it's bypassed.


That is a false dichotomy. You MUST encounter ice to bypass it. There is no effect that refers to bypassing ice that does not also refer to encountering it.
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Jeremy Larner
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notyetsuperman wrote:
Quote:
Can you give an example of a conditional ability which would go off even if it's trigger was no longer true when it resolved?


I believe you are overthinking this.

Bypassing [using Femme Fatal] prevents [the following:]
any unresolved conditional abilities [Tollbooth 3c Fee] that met their trigger condition when the ice was encountered [the moment the ICE is encountered it normally resolves]
from resolving.

In short, bypassing prevents (all that up there) from resolving.

I am aware of that. However, the person I was quoting stated that this (the fact that on encounter triggered effects check that the ice is still being encountered on resolution) was a special case, and not a general rule (i.e. it's not true that all triggered abilities check their trigger on resolution).

I was asking if there is a counter-example which demonstrates this (i.e. a triggered ability which resolves, even though it's trigger is no longer true on resolution).
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Ony Moose
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The only examples we have of a triggered effect not triggering is where a card is trashed before it can trigger. EG Aseop's and Wyldside, or DataMine with Sensei.

Bypass also cancels anything which triggered on encountering the ice.

I don't think there is anything else which can prevent a trigger condition from happening at the moment, so we can't say if its a special case of bypass or if some other effect could also prevent "on encounter" from triggering.
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Joshua Siegfried
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manydills wrote:
notyetsuperman wrote:

This is an incorrect interpretation of Chum + Bypass. Chum states the next peice of ICE encountered [effect]. However, the next piece of ICE is not encoutered, it's bypassed.


That is a false dichotomy. You MUST encounter ice to bypass it. There is no effect that refers to bypassing ice that does not also refer to encountering it.


Exactly what he said.

I'll add some examples.


Inside Job
Make a run. Bypass the first piece of ice encountered during this run.

Femme Fatale
When you install Femme Fatale, choose an installed piece of ice. When you encounter that ice, you may spend 1 [Credits] per subroutine on that ice to bypass it.

Bypassing will avoid any conditional triggers that trigger on encounter (Data Raven's tag or Tollbooth's toll) because the runner's 'on encounter' conditionals trigger before the corp's.

But the ice is still encountered, so things like Chum will still trigger even if you bypass.
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Adrian Breuch
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Jadiel and I could still need an example or maybe reference to the rules for "triggered ability which resolves, even though it's trigger is no longer true on resolution"

In the rules you can find something that you can only avoid a triggerd ability with an effect that's say "avoid" or "prevent"... but we are not talking about preventing the effect of an already triggerd ability... we are talking about the the point if the trigger is met or not and therefore is allowed to trigger.

(Pleas stop talking about chum, it's an constant ability, and not a condtionoal ability that could "trigger".)
Bypass and Trash were mentioned. Both can prevent conditional abilities from trigger.
Are these two just the exeption or am I right with my understanding of the rules:
my understanding of the rules wrote:
This stil leads me to belive that in general:
Every ability must be resolved completly before the next one will be resolved. This could result in a situation where the condition of a conditional ability is not longer met and therfore will not trigger, if it wasn't already resolved.

___________________________________
Kandiru wrote:
The only examples we have of a triggered effect not triggering is where a card is trashed before it can trigger. EG Aseop's and Wyldside, or DataMine with Sensei.

Bypass also cancels anything which triggered on encountering the ice.

I don't think there is anything else which can prevent a trigger condition from happening at the moment, so we can't say if its a special case of bypass or if some other effect could also prevent "on encounter" from triggering.

This is the kind of answer i want to read...
Related to the topic and an argument for your opinion.
 
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Steven Tu
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There is no such thing as something triggering, then no longer true when it resolves.

There are no interrupts in Netrunner. This is not Magic.

when something triggers, it resolves, then the next thing triggers, and resolves.

Example (that's already been discussed eleswhere):

Sneakdoor Beta, ASH on HQ, ChiLo on Archives.



4.2. Jack out or continue.
4.3. Paid abilities may be used
cards may be rezzed.
4.4. Run is successful. Trigger abilities if any.
4.5. Access cards.
5. Run ends
6. Run is unsuccessful. Trigger abilities if any.


Each trigger happens at its own time. Runners' effects happen first.

4.4
Runner's effect = run is now a successful run on HQ.

still 4.4
Then the corp's effects trigger.

If ASH is installed on the root of HQ (assuming it was rezzed at 4.3) - was there a successful run on the server he's on? Yes. Run trace.

If ChiLo is installed in the root of Archive - was there a successful trace on the server ChiLo is on? No. ChiLo Cannot trigger, no matter if it's rezzed or not.

Alternatively

If ASH was on Archives, and sneakdoor triggers, then the run is a successful HQ run, and when it comes to the possibility of ASH to trigger, it can no longer trigger as the successful run is no longer on ASH's server.
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Adrian Breuch
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Tuism wrote:
Example (that's already been discussed eleswhere):
Sneakdoor Beta, ASH on HQ, ChiLo on Archives.
Zyankalium wrote:
A short discussion confused me... originaly posted in here http://boardgamegeek.com/article/11285202#11285202

Tuism wrote:
when something triggers, it resolves, then the next thing triggers, and resolves.

Each trigger happens at its own time. Runners' effects happen first.

If you want to compare it to magic, the question might be someting like: "there is no stack like in magic, right?"

If i am reading right, you share the my opnion:
Conditional abilitys are not triggerd at the same time, even if they share the same conditon.
They are triggerd one by one.
So you are not allowed to trigger a conditional ability if the conditon is no longer met. That's why it has the condition.
 
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Zyankalium wrote:
Tuism wrote:
Example (that's already been discussed eleswhere):
Sneakdoor Beta, ASH on HQ, ChiLo on Archives.
Zyankalium wrote:
A short discussion confused me... originaly posted in here http://boardgamegeek.com/article/11285202#11285202

Tuism wrote:
when something triggers, it resolves, then the next thing triggers, and resolves.

Each trigger happens at its own time. Runners' effects happen first.

If you want to compare it to magic, the question might be someting like: "there is no stack like in magic, right?"

If i am reading right, you share the my opnion:
Conditional abilitys are not triggerd at the same time, even if they share the same conditon.
They are triggerd one by one.
So you are not allowed to trigger a conditional ability if the conditon is no longer met. That's why it has the condition.


Yep. No interrupts. You can't start and resolve an ability/effect with something in between. That's what Magic's stack does, as you've pointed out.

There's also a strict linear sequence of resolving stuff. One by one. Not one by WAIT I'M DOING THIS one by one.

And yep no such thing as simultaneous. Even when the trigger condition is the same, they go off one by one, in the order they're supposed to (or chosen to, if there's a choice by the player whose initiative it is, ie their turn, multiple effects).
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Mark Mitchell
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Can I clarify something in your example?

You say Chilo is 'in' archives. Do you mean installed as an upgrade on archives? Not trying to be nitpicking just wanted to make sure it can't be triggered if actually 'in' archives (otherwise ive been playing another rule wrong hehehe).

thanks
m
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Steven Tu
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gamecat_uk wrote:
Can I clarify something in your example?

You say Chilo is 'in' archives. Do you mean installed as an upgrade on archives? Not trying to be nitpicking just wanted to make sure it can't be triggered if actually 'in' archives (otherwise ive been playing another rule wrong hehehe).

thanks
m


Edited. I meant installed, trashed cards indeed doesn't have any effect.
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Mark Mitchell
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Tuism wrote:
gamecat_uk wrote:
Can I clarify something in your example?

You say Chilo is 'in' archives. Do you mean installed as an upgrade on archives? Not trying to be nitpicking just wanted to make sure it can't be triggered if actually 'in' archives (otherwise ive been playing another rule wrong hehehe).

thanks
m


Edited. I meant installed, trashed cards indeed doesn't have any effect.

Phew thanks
 
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Jeremy Larner
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Tuism wrote:
And yep no such thing as simultaneous. Even when the trigger condition is the same, they go off one by one, in the order they're supposed to (or chosen to, if there's a choice by the player whose initiative it is, ie their turn, multiple effects).


Just to clarify this - constant effects are applied simultaneously (see the FAQ). However, you are right that conditional effects resolve sequentially. When I read the rules, I thought that it said that triggers occur simultaneously, but the effects resolve sequentially. Going back and re-reading them, I can't see a strong case for either position.

As it doesn't seem to matter at the moment, I think it's fairly safe to leave it in an ambiguous state until a card is printed where this becomes important.
 
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Tuism wrote:
If ASH is installed on the root of HQ (assuming it was rezzed at 4.3) - was there a successful run on the server he's on? Yes. Run trace.

If ChiLo is installed in the root of Archive - was there a successful trace on the server ChiLo is on? No. ChiLo Cannot trigger, no matter if it's rezzed or not.

Alternatively

If ASH was on Archives, and sneakdoor triggers, then the run is a successful HQ run, and when it comes to the possibility of ASH to trigger, it can no longer trigger as the successful run is no longer on ASH's server.


In short, Ash just drops in at the end of the run to see what condition his conditional ability is in.
 
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