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Archipelago» Forums » Rules

Subject: Building from a occupied town and some scoring rss

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Mariusz Mucha
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I've built a town and occupy it with active meeple.
Now I want to build a port/market/temple/ship.
* can I build it with my town meeple?
* can I use the meeple later on for another building action or market/port action?
(I think yes for the ship building but not sure about buildings)

When I leave a building and it's endgame do the empty buildings counts as mine? There are only mine meeples in the region.
(I think no)

When I leave building and don't have town in the region can opponent from adjacent square occupy it by using 2 migration actions (1 to get to region, 1 to ocuppy the building)?
(I think yes)
 
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Johannes Florian
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Quote:
* can I build it with my town meeple?


No

Quote:
* can I use the meeple later on for another building action or market/port action?


In the next action-phase yes but not in the same

Quote:
(I think yes for the ship building but not sure about buildings)


No also not for ship building

Quote:
When I leave a building and it's endgame do the empty buildings counts as mine? There are only mine meeples in the region.
(I think no)


You are correct, they don't count as yours

Quote:
When I leave building and don't have town in the region can opponent from adjacent square occupy it by using 2 migration actions (1 to get to region, 1 to ocuppy the building)?
(I think yes)


You are correct again
 
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Curt Carpenter
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Jazzleflo wrote:
Quote:
When I leave a building and it's endgame do the empty buildings counts as mine? There are only mine meeples in the region.
(I think no)


You are correct, they don't count as yours

Unless you're talking about non-town buildings, and you own the town. In which case you do own the building.

Jazzleflo wrote:
Quote:
When I leave building and don't have town in the region can opponent from adjacent square occupy it by using 2 migration actions (1 to get to region, 1 to ocuppy the building)?
(I think yes)


You are correct again

I've seen this asked/answered different ways. But I'm not sure I've seen (or remember seeing) an authoritative answer to whether it moving into a building from an adjacent hex takes one or two migration actions.
 
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Mariusz Mucha
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Thanks for the answers!
Maybe I should be more specific. My meeple on city is non engaged (so the city was built somewhat earlier). As I understand it
Current turn
* building a port (meeple get engaged, port is built and controlled)
- I can use port later in this turn by non-disk action.
Next turn
* building a ship (using the same town meeple). It doesn't get engaged.
* building a temple (engaged)
* using the port.

Curt, I think the rule "Each unit can move to an adjacent region OR to an unoccupied building on the same region" is pretty much clear. I was rather thinking about situations that I have ocuppied market and empty temple. But right now I am sure that this market don't give me any rights to the temple (I know the town would but I have none).
 
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Thomas Leitner
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curtc wrote:
Jazzleflo wrote:
Quote:
When I leave a building and it's endgame do the empty buildings counts as mine? There are only mine meeples in the region.
(I think no)


You are correct, they don't count as yours

Unless you're talking about non-town buildings, and you own the town. In which case you do own the building.

Jazzleflo wrote:
Quote:
When I leave building and don't have town in the region can opponent from adjacent square occupy it by using 2 migration actions (1 to get to region, 1 to ocuppy the building)?
(I think yes)


You are correct again

I've seen this asked/answered different ways. But I'm not sure I've seen (or remember seeing) an authoritative answer to whether it moving into a building from an adjacent hex takes one or two migration actions.


The English language rules state unambiguously that it takes two separate migration actions to occupy an empty building from an adjacent hex (or non-adjacent if using a convoy). However, apparently, the author has stated on a French forum that it would only take one migration action. Since I don't speak French, I can't verify this.

There is a thread on BGG somewhere where someone links the French site, and provides a translation of the content. I would provide the link, but I last looked at it months ago.

I realize this solves little, but I play with the French rule as I believe it's a better rule.
 
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Curt Carpenter
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MDJD wrote:
The English language rules state unambiguously that it takes two separate migration actions to occupy an empty building from an adjacent hex (or non-adjacent if using a convoy).

Can you point to where the rules say that?

MDJD wrote:
However, apparently, the author has stated on a French forum that it would only take one migration action.

Maybe that's where the confusion I was thinking of came from.
 
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Thomas Leitner
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curtc wrote:
MDJD wrote:
The English language rules state unambiguously that it takes two separate migration actions to occupy an empty building from an adjacent hex (or non-adjacent if using a convoy).

Can you point to where the rules say that?


Yep. Page 11, under Migration. The second sentence, "Each unit can move to an adjacent region or to an unoccupied building on the same region."

My understanding is that this is an incorrect translation from the original French rules, but I really don't know that for a fact.
 
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Curt Carpenter
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MDJD wrote:
Yep. Page 11, under Migration. The second sentence, "Each unit can move to an adjacent region or to an unoccupied building on the same region."

Ahh yes. Thanks.
 
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P. oeppel
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flymar wrote:
Thanks for the answers!
Maybe I should be more specific. My meeple on city is non engaged (so the city was built somewhat earlier). As I understand it
Current turn
* building a port (meeple get engaged, port is built and controlled)
- I can use port later in this turn by non-disk action.
Next turn
* building a ship (using the same town meeple). It doesn't get engaged.
* building a temple (engaged)
* using the port.


However, take into account that you cannot build another building and stay in/on the town. You always move your meeple to the new building.
 
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Mariusz Mucha
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pinoeppel wrote:
However, take into account that you cannot build another building and stay in/on the town. You always move your meeple to the new building.

Interesting. How can I get back to town? Do I have to use migration?
 
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P. oeppel
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flymar wrote:
pinoeppel wrote:
However, take into account that you cannot build another building and stay in/on the town. You always move your meeple to the new building.

Interesting. How can I get back to town? Do I have to use migration?


Yes. But be careful, your meeple is engaged after building. So watch out for your opponents snatching the town....Not played often yet, but I guess leaving a town is pretty risky....
 
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Brian Putnam
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Most efficient is to build your port, market, and temple, then use the temple guy to build the town (he doesn't get engaged by standing up meeples), then your port and market guys can leave to do their own thing.
 
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Brent Wilson
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Lunatic Calm wrote:
Most efficient is to build your port, market, and temple, then use the temple guy to build the town (he doesn't get engaged by standing up meeples), then your port and market guys can leave to do their own thing.


But as I recall, there is still an advantage to keeping the temple guy on the temple since the town guy has to be stood up manually (by someone else or by sacrificing resources) before he controls the temple and is able to stand everyone else on the tile up for free.

That's correct, isn't it?
 
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Jeff Kayati
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Speedyox wrote:
Lunatic Calm wrote:
Most efficient is to build your port, market, and temple, then use the temple guy to build the town (he doesn't get engaged by standing up meeples), then your port and market guys can leave to do their own thing.


But as I recall, there is still an advantage to keeping the temple guy on the temple since the town guy has to be stood up manually (by someone else or by sacrificing resources) before he controls the temple and is able to stand everyone else on the tile up for free.

That's correct, isn't it?


Yes. Only meeples in Temples don't "fall down". Controlling a Temple by using a Town doens't save the meeple in the town.
 
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Curt Carpenter
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I don't believe that's correct. The rules say:
Rules wrote:
...during the resolution of a crisis, when it is the turn of the player controlling the temple, this player may choose to stand all citizens present in the temple’s region up for free...

To control a temple, a player must either occupy it with an active citizen, or control it from a town.


Having a dude in a town is sufficient to control a temple, and save all the dudes in the region, including the dude in the town.
 
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Brent Wilson
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curtc wrote:
I don't believe that's correct. The rules say:
Rules wrote:
...during the resolution of a crisis, when it is the turn of the player controlling the temple, this player may choose to stand all citizens present in the temple’s region up for free...

To control a temple, a player must either occupy it with an active citizen, or control it from a town.


Having a dude in a town is sufficient to control a temple, and save all the dudes in the region, including the dude in the town.


My understanding is that a dude, in a town, on his back, isn't controlling the temple, because he's a rebel.
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Curt Carpenter
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Speedyox wrote:
My understanding is that a dude, in a town, on his back, isn't controlling the temple, because he's a rebel.

What rule is that understanding based on? I don't see anywhere in the rules (or in all these rules threads) where it says anything like that.
 
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Ioannis Reppas
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curtc wrote:
Speedyox wrote:
My understanding is that a dude, in a town, on his back, isn't controlling the temple, because he's a rebel.

What rule is that understanding based on? I don't see anywhere in the rules (or in all these rules threads) where it says anything like that.


Rulebook page 8 (top left corner)

"Rebel citizens refuse to work. They cannot perform any
actions. They cannot use or control a building, and they do not
contribute to any money during a taxes action."

So a rebel citizen in a town does not control it. Therefore its owner does not control the temple, so he/she cannot stand up all the citizen in the region until the town citizen become active.
 
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Phil McDonald
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Speedyox wrote:
curtc wrote:
I don't believe that's correct. The rules say:
Rules wrote:
...during the resolution of a crisis, when it is the turn of the player controlling the temple, this player may choose to stand all citizens present in the temple’s region up for free...

To control a temple, a player must either occupy it with an active citizen, or control it from a town.


Having a dude in a town is sufficient to control a temple, and save all the dudes in the region, including the dude in the town.


My understanding is that a dude, in a town, on his back, isn't controlling the temple, because he's a rebel.


How did he get on his back? If he's on a town he controls the temple which prevents him from becoming a rebel.
 
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P. oeppel
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philmcd wrote:
Speedyox wrote:
curtc wrote:
I don't believe that's correct. The rules say:
Rules wrote:
...during the resolution of a crisis, when it is the turn of the player controlling the temple, this player may choose to stand all citizens present in the temple’s region up for free...

To control a temple, a player must either occupy it with an active citizen, or control it from a town.


Having a dude in a town is sufficient to control a temple, and save all the dudes in the region, including the dude in the town.


My understanding is that a dude, in a town, on his back, isn't controlling the temple, because he's a rebel.


How did he get on his back? If he's on a town he controls the temple which prevents him from becoming a rebel.


No, only meeples directly in a temple are safe from crisis/rebellion, not the ones controlling the temple via a town. But you can pay to stand up the guy on the town (and meeples in other regions) and then stand up the other meeples in the town/temple region for free (since then you are back in control of the temple).
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Mariusz Mucha
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hidamiyiagi wrote:
curtc wrote:
Speedyox wrote:
My understanding is that a dude, in a town, on his back, isn't controlling the temple, because he's a rebel.

What rule is that understanding based on? I don't see anywhere in the rules (or in all these rules threads) where it says anything like that.


Rulebook page 8 (top left corner)

"Rebel citizens refuse to work. They cannot perform any
actions. They cannot use or control a building, and they do not
contribute to any money during a taxes action."

So a rebel citizen in a town does not control it. Therefore its owner does not control the temple, so he/she cannot stand up all the citizen in the region until the town citizen become active.

Exactly. So you can use only one 'citizen point' during resolving a crysis to wake up entire tile.
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Thomas Leitner
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pinoeppel wrote:
philmcd wrote:
Speedyox wrote:
curtc wrote:
I don't believe that's correct. The rules say:
Rules wrote:
...during the resolution of a crisis, when it is the turn of the player controlling the temple, this player may choose to stand all citizens present in the temple’s region up for free...

To control a temple, a player must either occupy it with an active citizen, or control it from a town.


Having a dude in a town is sufficient to control a temple, and save all the dudes in the region, including the dude in the town.


My understanding is that a dude, in a town, on his back, isn't controlling the temple, because he's a rebel.


How did he get on his back? If he's on a town he controls the temple which prevents him from becoming a rebel.


No, only meeples directly in a temple are safe from crisis/rebellion, not the ones controlling the temple via a town. But you can pay to stand up the guy on the town (and meeples in other regions) and then stand up the other meeples in the town/temple region for free (since then you are back in control of the temple).


Sorry, but I believe this is incorrect. Go read the rules on temples. In addition to the meeple in the temple, the controller of the temple can choose to stand any other meeples in the region. A player on a town controls an empty temple, therefore the controller will choose to stand the meeple in the city.
 
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Brent Wilson
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MDJD wrote:
pinoeppel wrote:
philmcd wrote:
Speedyox wrote:
curtc wrote:
I don't believe that's correct. The rules say:
Rules wrote:
...during the resolution of a crisis, when it is the turn of the player controlling the temple, this player may choose to stand all citizens present in the temple’s region up for free...

To control a temple, a player must either occupy it with an active citizen, or control it from a town.


Having a dude in a town is sufficient to control a temple, and save all the dudes in the region, including the dude in the town.


My understanding is that a dude, in a town, on his back, isn't controlling the temple, because he's a rebel.


How did he get on his back? If he's on a town he controls the temple which prevents him from becoming a rebel.


No, only meeples directly in a temple are safe from crisis/rebellion, not the ones controlling the temple via a town. But you can pay to stand up the guy on the town (and meeples in other regions) and then stand up the other meeples in the town/temple region for free (since then you are back in control of the temple).


Sorry, but I believe this is incorrect. Go read the rules on temples. In addition to the meeple in the temple, the controller of the temple can choose to stand any other meeples in the region. A player on a town controls an empty temple, therefore the controller will choose to stand the meeple in the city.


That meeple on the town will be laid down during a Domestic Crisis. That's different than actually being ON the temple where the rule clearly states that the guy is never laid down. But even after saying this, I WANT it to work the way you're suggesting, Curt and Thomas. I wish a french speaker would work out this detail with the designer to see what the actual intention was.

Domestic Crisis:
Quote:
To resolve the crisis, lay all the citizens on
their backs, for all players and across the entire
archipelago. Ships are not affected by the crisis.


Temples:
Quote:
A citizen on a temple is never laid on its back
during the resolution of a crisis. In addition,
during the resolution of a crisis, when it is the turn of the
player controlling the temple, this player may choose to
stand all citizens present in the temple’s region up for
free—whether they are of his color or other players’
colors.
To control a temple, a player must either occupy it with
an active citizen, or control it from a town.

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Thomas Leitner
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Ah. I see what you're saying. The timing is that first all citizens are on their backs, then, in turn, you stand citizens back up applying whatever criteria are needed to resolve the crisis. Therefore, the citizen in the town is already lying down, and needs to stand first, then he can control the temple again.

I think this is right, and I've been playing wrong. Good discussion.
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Curt Carpenter
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I missed the "special note" right under the temple section, which answers this question nicely (although I wouldn't consider it a "special case", and thus missed it because it's formatted like the "Tactical note" below it):

Rules wrote:
Special case: If a player controls a temple from a town, but the citizen on the town becomes a rebel, the temple is no longer controlled. In order to use the temple, the player must first be able to stand the citizen up on his town before standing the other citizens on the region up.

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