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Subject: Um... why is this game so highly rated -- and one rules question. rss

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I've been slogging thru the rules and have started playing solitaire using vassal to learn the mechanics and geez it sure seems like a lot of gamers think highly of this game, but I'm not feeling it. The rules are not written well and that certainly contributes to my annoyance, but that's not the whole of it. I learned Squad Leader from the first edition rules - which is to say, I can deal with a little frustration if in the end there's a quality game.

First...

Relative range is unnecessarily confusing. Why not a fixed grid concept -- Axis starts at 5, allies at 0. Axis moving "down" Allies moving "up" That way the difference between the numbers = relative range, and the smaller the relative range the closer the range value. So a range of 0 is point blank, and a range of 5 or greater is long range. Intuitive, non?) OK, this doesn't really affect game play... I'd get used to the bizarro traditional Up Front way eventually I suppose, but...

My beef is that game play (I'm using the Patrol scenario) seems to involve a lot of wishing one had the right cards, and advancing out of boredom and a sense of fair play rather than because it is a tactically sound move. In the patrol scenario it makes little sense to advance. Why not let the enemy advance to you? (This accomplishes your mission as well as advancing since your mission is to achieve a _relative range_ of 4 in cover. So, let the enemy bring the RR to you. They expose themselves to fire, moving, while you entrench.) I suppose they can play terrain on you to force you to move but that's pretty much making my point isn't it: Don't move unless you have to. So you move briefly to throw off the wire or the marsh and get back to digging foxholes, right? It just seems to me like the scenario is broken and while I understand it's programmed learning with a partial rules set so give the system a break... well -- it does not make a good impression that the first scenario doesn't play.

Someone tell me please, what I'm missing -- what makes this game worth the effort?

Pyth.

***Ooops -- forgot my rules question... which is: several plays involve playing a card as a discard, rather than as an action -- terrain is played on an opponent as a discard, infiltrators discard movement cards to avoid morale checks... are these discard plays subject to nationality limitations (Germans always get 1 D/C, US gets 2 but only if no actions taken, etc.) or are play-as-a-discard moves exempt. I was under the impression they are subject to the nationality discard rules -- but the way infiltration is written it seems to suggest you can D/C as many movement cards as you need to.
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Seth Owen
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I believe the Relative Range concept was done that way because it's possible for groups to move past each other.

The new version of Up Front seems to have gone with a more intuitive system.
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Jason Sadler
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You must be at Range 4 to win, not Relative Range 4.
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Rich James
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Actions that the rules say are done in lieu of a discard count against the discard limitations of your nationality. Other plays into the discard pile, such as movement cards to avoid a morale check, are not "in lieu of a discard" and don't count against your discard allotment. So an American player could fire with group A as well as attempt to infiltrate with group B (say 3 men attempt it) and could play 3 movement cards if he has them so the 3 men do not have to do morale checks. A German doing the same actions could do all that and still discard a card as his discard (or place terrain on an opponent in lieu of his discard).

As to Scenario A, another way to win the scenario is through victory points. You can earn points for aggressive action. If you move your 4 man team forward to range chit 1 and in terrain that provides cover, you have 4 VPs if they survive to the end and stay unpinned. So if your opponent wants to sit there and wait for you to advance, first move your groups sideways into good terrain. Then start moving them forward to range 1 in good terrain. Then sit there and it is now you opponent who must act or he will lose.
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BeatPosse wrote:
You must be at Range 4 to win, not Relative Range 4.


Oh god, you're right... well good, at least the scenario isn't broken (only my eye-glasses are)
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Up Front! is one of the very best games ever, ever. You will need to play it against a human, and preferably one who's played a couple times. The it does *not* come down to wishing for cards, that's Combat Commander. You have cards, just not the ones you want. So do you follow the cards or Entrench and try to get what you need? You move through a lot of cards, so you'll get what you need, but can you save the good ones for that magic moment?

Meanwhile people are panicking, there's wire and smoke, it's very flavorful. But you have to let the sketch of the dramatic situation determined by the cards on the table come alive, and an enthusiastic human opponent is the best way to get that.
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"Um... why is this game so highly rated ..."

Because it's an outstanding design and does a better job of capturing the experience of combat at the squad level better than anything before or since.
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Misterhawk wrote:
"Um... why is this game so highly rated ..."

Because it's an outstanding design and does a better job of capturing the experience of combat at the squad level better than anything before or since.
Much better against an actual opponent. Part of the fun is in the tension of not knowing what happens next.
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arjisme wrote:
Actions that the rules say are done in lieu of a discard count against the discard limitations... [snip]

As to Scenario A, another way to win the scenario is through victory points.... [snip]


Ok... that's clear enough, and I see the "in lieu of discard" distinction is made in the rules. The VP business makes sense too although getting to range chit 4 as Beat Posse pointed out seems to remove my earlier objection anyway.

But two more rules question: Flanking (when done with a "flank" movement card).

Is playing a flank movement card in any way moving? The rules call it a flank movement card a couple times but as movement it doesn't make any sense because a moving group which fires has halved fp... so double for flanking -- net effect no change?! At present my reading is that playing a flank movement card does not indicate movement.

But what am I to make of 17.5: "when Flanking Fire is lost, remove the Flank Fire chit. The flank card itself need not be removed if still in place although it cannot be used again for flanking fire until redrawn from the Draw pile and replayed." What the heck is the point of this? And why "if still in place" -- what could possibly have removed the flank fire card prior to losing flanking fire? Try as I may, I cannot come up with any purpose behind 17.5 or even a case where it might apply.

Edit* @Orion -- I promise I'm not trolling... I've been genuinely disappointed by my first dip into Up Front -- but of course a live opponent would make a huge difference. Yes, SL rules were a mess but it was always obvious to me the underlying game was sweet. As for the Fake Name -- it's from my anti-spam mail account...
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Jason Sadler
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I love Up Front, and it actually is easy to play, but learning it really can be painful. I learned it by a process of playing wrong and arguing with my best friend for a week or two. Once you crack the initial concept barrier, everything works.

When you gain flanking by playing movement, you are moving until you play terrain (even open ground) on the flanking group. Then you have the flanking bonus without the movement card (and lose all the penalties for firing).

A group loses the flanking bonus when you play another movement card on it, gets a wire played on it, the flanked group gets into terrain, the flanked group moves, and other reasons I don't know off the top of my head.

Find some of the newer editions of the rules here in the files section. They saved me a lot of time and trouble.
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I have to say - this is not a solitaire-suitable game. The best way to see the game shine is to have an experienced player teach you the game and play a scenario. I don't think the tension of the game is present in solitaire.
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I agree. It is one thing to play solo via vassal and another to play against someone. You then feel the tension. I believe it is more prevalent than in any other war game. If you are trying to learn using original rules. STOP! Get the re-written ones here on BGG and use those.
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Mike Szarka
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andreww wrote:

it does *not* come down to wishing for cards, that's Combat Commander.




The hand management in CC so clearly builds on UF I have no idea why you would say that. Except that in CC you have less chance of being stuck with useless cards because you can use them as either Actions or Orders.
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I don't want to hijack the thread, but in a nutshell I just didn't like CC. I bought it, expected to love it, did love the DIY squad system, a lot of the random events, and the physical production. But game play just left me completely cold. In UF! you can cycle cards, get what you need, and pursue an attack with more or less efficiency. CC just seemed to me like not having cards. I'm very happy for all the people who love CC, and I could be persuaded to play a game or two someday. But I traded away my copy, it's just not UF!
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Richard Irving
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Pyth wrote:
I've been slogging thru the rules and have started playing solitaire using vassal to learn the mechanics and geez it sure seems like a lot of gamers think highly of this game, but I'm not feeling it. The rules are not written well and that certainly contributes to my annoyance, but that's not the whole of it.


Agreed, the rules of Up Front are not very written. But Up Front has many unique concepts and mechanics that are not shared by other wargames. Unfamiliarity breeds perceived complexity.

Quote:
I learned Squad Leader from the first edition rules -


Did you learn Squad Leader without ever playing a hex and counter wargame? You probably didn't have to learn the movement point system from scratch or the how to use a CRT or how to perform ranged combat, You may have known the basics of Squad Leader's rules by playing other wargames.

Squad Leader also has consistent phase order each and every turn. That gives a convenient hook in the rules to learning the game. Up Front you can any action on any turn subject to possession of the right card--menaing you really have to know all of the rules that apply in your scenario.


Quote:
which is to say, I can deal with a little frustration if in the end there's a quality game.


Why play Up Front? All I can say is Up front has provided more entertainment and excitement than any other game I have played.

First...

Quote:
Relative range is unnecessarily confusing. Why not a fixed grid concept -- Axis starts at 5, allies at 0. Axis moving "down" Allies moving "up" That way the difference between the numbers = relative range, and the smaller the relative range the closer the range value. So a range of 0 is point blank, and a range of 5 or greater is long range. Intuitive, non?) OK, this doesn't really affect game play...


Your system is possibly the most complex and confusing system possible:
- In the current system BOTH players play by the same rules: Increasing Range Chits = towards the enemy, decreasing range chits = away from the enemy. Your requires one player to opposite the other. I can easily see where a player might accidentally place the wrong range chit when advancing/retreating.
- In the current system, determining the distance between groups is done by adding. Occasionally (in less than 10% of the games I have ever played) you have to make an adjustment for two groups passing each other. In your system you have to subtract to determine distance and subtracting ALWAYS more error prone than adding.
- Many rules that would be far more difficult to write if you used this method. (Note: You have the incorrect victory rule for Patrol.) Patrol's victory conditions are, "Four or more unpinned men in one or more groups at range chit 4 in good defensive terrain." Under your system the rules have to written: "Four or more unpinned men in one or more groups at range chit 4 (if you are the Allies) or range chit 1 (if you are the Axis) in good defensive terrain." A lot more complicated.

Yes, relative range is bit of a hurdle in learning Up Front, but it far easier to play the game because of it.

Quote:

My beef is that game play (I'm using the Patrol scenario) seems to involve a lot of wishing one had the right cards, and advancing out of boredom and a sense of fair play rather than because it is a tactically sound move.


[Yoda voice ON] Patience you must learn! [Yoda voice OFF]

A lot of the game is cycling cards to get the cards you need--doing this effectively is the key element of the game. This represents an important reality about infantry combat--your troops will not necessarily follow order due to maybe not being able to hear them in the din of the battle, maybe fear that the last sniper's bullet was a little too close, due seeing something that their commander cannot (like a hidden enemy or a firing lane from that machine gun nest.)

Blindly advancing forward without cover (advancing from good terrain or smoke or good concealment card) or without first knocking down enemy (by pinning a few men or placing them in wire.) is rarely successful.

Quote:

In the patrol scenario it makes little sense to advance. Why not let the enemy advance to you? (This accomplishes your mission as well as advancing since your mission is to achieve a _relative range_ of 4 in cover.


Incorrect! As explained above--Victory in patrol is achieved is earned by getting 4 or men to RANGE CHIT 4, not relative range 4. (Why would you think that allowing my opponent to advance would help me win? That seems perverse, doesn't it?)

Also you can win patrol by breaking the enemy (eliminating 50% +1 of their men.) or after the third deck, having more victory points:
2 VP for each opponent KIA
1 VP for each opponent Rout
Each non-moving group: its current range chit * the number of unpinned men in the group.

Quote:

So, let the enemy bring the RR to you. They expose themselves to fire, moving, while you entrench.) I suppose they can play terrain on you to force you to move but that's pretty much making my point isn't it: Don't move unless you have to. So you move briefly to throw off the wire or the marsh and get back to digging foxholes, right? It just seems to me like the scenario is broken and while I understand it's programmed learning with a partial rules set so give the system a break... well -- it does not make a good impression that the first scenario doesn't play.

Someone tell me please, what I'm missing -- what makes this game worth the effort?



Your incorrect interpretation of the victory conditions colors your opinions. Play the game correctly first.

Also if you are playing it solitaire, try to find an experienced opponent--the game is not meant to be played solitaire.


Quote:
Pyth.

***Ooops -- forgot my rules question... which is: several plays involve playing a card as a discard, rather than as an action -- terrain is played on an opponent as a discard, infiltrators discard movement cards to avoid morale checks... are these discard plays subject to nationality limitations (Germans always get 1 D/C, US gets 2 but only if no actions taken, etc.) or are play-as-a-discard moves exempt. I was under the impression they are subject to the nationality discard rules -- but the way infiltration is written it seems to suggest you can D/C as many movement cards as you need to.


First: Infiltration attempts and infiltrators entering CC ARE actions by themselves--any played movement cards to avoid Morale checks and concealment cards to improve the odds do not count against the discard limit. (They are "played" and after use placed in the discard pile.)

Playing cards directly on your opponent does use the discard action: Terrain on your opponent, Snipers, wire, smoke (if laid by a heavy AFV) and does count against the discard--meaning the German (or French) player can either play the sniper or the wire on his opponent, whereas anyone else can hit their opponent with both.
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John Bradshaw
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Pyth wrote:
Someone tell me please, what I'm missing -- what makes this game worth the effort?


As others have said - an opponent! Solo playing a game with hidden information is difficult and usually only useful for getting to grips with the rules.

Why is the game worth it? Well - you're a Squad Leader player so you're interested in the subject - you're most of the way there already. Now consider - how realistic is your aerial view of the battlefield? You can see every building, every hedge - every ditch - unlike your soldiers, who are cowering behind a wall, in a prone position and unable to see more than a few yards in front of them. That's the position your Up Front cards put you in. OK - now you can see a stone building ahead - great cover - let's get over there - damn! - there's a ditch in the way - get down!

For me, Up Front is worth it because of how real it feels. Thankfully I've never been in a position remotely like the horror those young men must have gone through, but Up Front certainly gives me an impression of how it must have been, even more so than it's excellent progenitor, Squad leader.

I hope the game eventually clicks into place for you - enjoy!
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Brother! (or sister, whichever) Go find ye an opponent!

Up Front is on of the few games that actually *is* unique, alone in the middle of a field of 'push the squares over the hexes' or 'trade cubes for bigger cubes and VPs' games.

Yes, the rulebook quite frankly sucks. It's not even good enough to warrant being nice about. It took a friend and I several days to hash out the basics of it, and we still find little things here and there we do wrong when we try to introduce vehicles and other one-off advanced rules. But this is one game where it has absolutely been worth it because, as others have said, it provides hands down the best 'feel' of squad level action of any game. And there really is nothing like it out there. You can see traces of it in games all over, but Up Front is really a one of a kind.

Ultimately you may not like it, but I would ask you don't make that decision now. Don't make it until you the horrid rulebook finally clicks or you find an experienced player to sit down and help you learn the game.
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andreww wrote:

I don't want to hijack the thread, but in a nutshell I just didn't like CC. I bought it, expected to love it, did love the DIY squad system, a lot of the random events, and the physical production. But game play just left me completely cold. In UF! you can cycle cards, get what you need, and pursue an attack with more or less efficiency. CC just seemed to me like not having cards. I'm very happy for all the people who love CC, and I could be persuaded to play a game or two someday. But I traded away my copy, it's just not UF!


Funny. I like UF but love CC. CC just seemed like the next evolution of UF to me. But I still like UF because it is faster to play and set up and has a small footprint.
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mcszarka wrote:
andreww wrote:

I don't want to hijack the thread, but in a nutshell I just didn't like CC. I bought it, expected to love it, did love the DIY squad system, a lot of the random events, and the physical production. But game play just left me completely cold. In UF! you can cycle cards, get what you need, and pursue an attack with more or less efficiency. CC just seemed to me like not having cards. I'm very happy for all the people who love CC, and I could be persuaded to play a game or two someday. But I traded away my copy, it's just not UF!


Funny. I like UF but love CC. CC just seemed like the next evolution of UF to me. But I still like UF because it is faster to play and set up and has a small footprint.


Conversely, I love UpFront, and really like CC! To me UpFront is quicker, more unforgiving, less random (I know, many would argue this both ways/both ways... but just my take, as my winning percentages in UpFront over the years were pretty high and solid, but Combat Commander seems more a toss-up or toss-down), easier setup/teardown, and more exciting. And I love the scale of man-to-man, as opposed to squad level (which to me, I'll take CC over SL or ASL most anyday, and I play all the above).

But it's like sex, takes two to really make it worth while! laugh
Solo, I'd play SL or ASL depending on my mood, as CC or UF are not solo occupations in my world.
 
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Seghillian wrote:


[...snip]how realistic is your aerial view of the battlefield? You can see every building, every hedge - every ditch - unlike your soldiers, who are cowering behind a wall, in a prone position and unable to see more than a few yards in front of them.[...snip]

I hope the game eventually clicks into place for you - enjoy!


It's already clicking. In fact the game is brilliant. I'm starting to get a sense of how tense this game would be if I didn't know what was in my opponent's hand! You really don't know if your opponent is waiting patiently to chew your men into bloody tatters with an optimal combination of cards -- or is writhing in vulnerable desperation holding an unplayable mess of wrong cards -- and so you don't know what's going to happen and you don't know what the right thing to do is... I think that's an emotional simulation of ground war more interesting than range tables and penetration factors vs. armor.

But to the point you raised about the fog of war... Yes, I absolutely agree that UF gives you the grunt's eye view rather than the omniscient command helicopter one typically occupies. My only complaint is I want more: I can't help wishing intel about the enemy soldiers was more limited and harder to come by. I wish I didn't know the morale of individual soldiers in an enemy group. I shouldn't even know exactly how many enemy soldiers are in a group until it's fired... or been seen crossing open ground. That would be even greater. But I've definitely crossed over in UF appreciation... and the rules are even starting to make sense.
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Pyth wrote:
Yes, I absolutely agree that UF gives you the grunt's eye view rather than the omniscient command helicopter one typically occupies. My only complaint is I want more: I can't help wishing intel about the enemy soldiers was more limited and harder to come by. I wish I didn't know the morale of individual soldiers in an enemy group. I shouldn't even know exactly how many enemy soldiers are in a group until it's fired... or been seen crossing open ground. That would be even greater. But I've definitely crossed over in UF appreciation... and the rules are even starting to make sense.


Excellent! I'm glad you're enjoying the game.

That's a great idea you have about the additional fog of war. I can see this now - you've fired a strong volley - you don't know how much damage has been done - a few turns go by - maybe they're all KIA over there? Ah - a movement card - let's go see - aaargh!

I suppose this could be achieved quite easily with the use of screens behind which your units are placed, and an umpire - or great trust on both sides!

Wouldn't it be great if someone set that up online ...
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"Because it's an outstanding design and does a better job of capturing the experience of combat at the squad level better than anything before or since."

Have you played Band of Brothers yet?
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Pyth wrote:
It's already clicking. In fact the game is brilliant....

But to the point you raised about the fog of war... Yes, I absolutely agree that UF gives you the grunt's eye view rather than the omniscient command helicopter one typically occupies. My only complaint is I want more: I can't help wishing intel about the enemy soldiers was more limited and harder to come by. I wish I didn't know the morale of individual soldiers in an enemy group. I shouldn't even know exactly how many enemy soldiers are in a group until it's fired... or been seen crossing open ground. That would be even greater. But I've definitely crossed over in UF appreciation... and the rules are even starting to make sense.


Glad you've seen the light! laugh

There was a 3-player refereed variant described in one of the Generals ("Odd Man In" 26-5) and I tried it with my two sons once - it was a hoot! They were stumbling around not knowing what the hell they were doing and just as someone said, at one point they would be crawling cautiously forward while the opponents were all pinned, and the next they were running into a hail of fire. More realistic than normal play and even as the referee I thoroughly enjoyed it.
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Sokadr wrote:
"Because it's an outstanding design and does a better job of capturing the experience of combat at the squad level better than anything before or since."

Have you played Band of Brothers yet?


Regrettably, I haven't been able to get it (or much of anything else to the table), but I've heard nothing but good things about it and I admire Jim Krohn for his involvement after publication.

One of these days ...

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Misterhawk wrote:
"Um... why is this game so highly rated ..."

Because it's an outstanding design and does a better job of capturing the experience of combat at the squad level better than anything before or since.


It's a great game. Probably one of the best war games ever created. Give it time, it's a fun game.
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