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Subject: TIC: Navy topics also? ;-) rss

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Wolfram Troeder
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Is it OK to discuss also Navy topics in this section?
AFAIK there is no General in the Navy only Admirals.

Do we need an Admiral Section?



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Wolfram wrote:
Is it OK to discuss also Navy topics in this section?
AFAIK there is no General in the Navy only Admirals.

Do we need an Admiral Section?




"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody threads today, Chatfield."
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Wolfram wrote:
Is it OK to discuss also Navy topics in this section?
AFAIK there is no General in the Navy only Admirals.

Do we need an Admiral Section?


The USMC has generals and falls under the US Navy so at least in the US it can be said that the Navy also has Generals.

You could use the term "flag officers" and, at least here, that would cover both generals and admirals.
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pmbrill77 wrote:
The USMC has generals and falls under the US Navy so at least in the US it can be said that the Navy also has Generals.


Actually, the USMC falls under the Department of the Navy but not the Navy; since 1947 it's has been a separate service co-equal to the Navy, Army, and Air Force.

pmbrill77 wrote:
You could use the term "flag officers" and, at least here, that would cover both generals and admirals.


That works.
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Wolfram wrote:
Is it OK to discuss also Navy topics in this section?
AFAIK there is no General in the Navy only Admirals.


The Build-Up of the Imperial German Navy - first item notes that the first heads of the Prussian Navy were Army GENERALS, not Navy admirals!
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jpr755 wrote:
Wolfram wrote:
Is it OK to discuss also Navy topics in this section?
AFAIK there is no General in the Navy only Admirals.

Do we need an Admiral Section?




"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody threads today, Chatfield."


There is also something wrong with our bloody thumbs - items I know I've thumbed don't show it.
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Eldard wrote:
pmbrill77 wrote:
The USMC has generals and falls under the US Navy so at least in the US it can be said that the Navy also has Generals.


Actually, the USMC falls under the Department of the Navy but not the Navy; since 1947 it's has been a separate service co-equal to the Navy, Army, and Air Force.

pmbrill77 wrote:
You could use the term "flag officers" and, at least here, that would cover both generals and admirals.


That works.


I was once chastised for referring to an Army 2-star as a "Flag Officer." Was told in no uncertain terms that he was a "General Officer."

In the Pentagon, the term "FOGO" was often used -- "Flag or General Officer."
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Wolfram wrote:
Is it OK to discuss also Navy topics in this section?
AFAIK there is no General in the Navy only Admirals.

Do we need an Admiral Section?





Yes

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jpr755 wrote:
Eldard wrote:
pmbrill77 wrote:
The USMC has generals and falls under the US Navy so at least in the US it can be said that the Navy also has Generals.


Actually, the USMC falls under the Department of the Navy but not the Navy; since 1947 it's has been a separate service co-equal to the Navy, Army, and Air Force.

pmbrill77 wrote:
You could use the term "flag officers" and, at least here, that would cover both generals and admirals.


That works.


I was once chastised for referring to an Army 2-star as a "Flag Officer." Was told in no uncertain terms that he was a "General Officer."

In the Pentagon, the term "FOGO" was often used -- "Flag or General Officer."

I have served with Army Generals who had no issue with either appelation. Also with O-6/Colonels who stated that they were looking forward to earning their flags.

I never served at the Pentagon though. I wonder if it could be a political thing that is not as prevalent the further the unit is away from DC?
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pmbrill77 wrote:
I have served with Army Generals who had no issue with either appelation. Also with O-6/Colonels who stated that they were looking forward to earning their flags.

I never served at the Pentagon though. I wonder if it could be a political thing that is not as prevalent the further the unit is away from DC?


Could be. The "Puzzle Palace" does weird things to a normal person's mind. I should know after 2 tours there...yuck.
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pmbrill77 wrote:
jpr755 wrote:
Eldard wrote:
pmbrill77 wrote:
The USMC has generals and falls under the US Navy so at least in the US it can be said that the Navy also has Generals.


Actually, the USMC falls under the Department of the Navy but not the Navy; since 1947 it's has been a separate service co-equal to the Navy, Army, and Air Force.

pmbrill77 wrote:
You could use the term "flag officers" and, at least here, that would cover both generals and admirals.


That works.


I was once chastised for referring to an Army 2-star as a "Flag Officer." Was told in no uncertain terms that he was a "General Officer."

In the Pentagon, the term "FOGO" was often used -- "Flag or General Officer."

I have served with Army Generals who had no issue with either appelation. Also with O-6/Colonels who stated that they were looking forward to earning their flags.

I never served at the Pentagon though. I wonder if it could be a political thing that is not as prevalent the further the unit is away from DC?


It may be an individual thing. I remember back in the '80s when the US Navy restored the one-star flag rank, which traditionally was only a wartime rank -- Commodore. Before this, a Captain (O-6) promoted to pay grade O-7 (Brigadier General in the other services), wore two-stars and held the rank of Rear Admiral. Later, he/she would go up to pay grade O-8, but still have two-stars and rank of Rear Admiral.

What that meant was that in a joint staff, a Navy Captain working for an Army brigadier general on Monday, might be promoted to Rear Admiral (RADM) (2-stars) on Tuesday and outrank his/her boss, even though they were in the same pay grade. Some Congressman decided it was time the Navy had a peacetime Commodore/one-star rank, and got the change passed in a bill. And rightly so.

Oh, the friggin' moaning that erupted over that. Many of the soon to be promoted Navy Captains were whining -- "All my career I've been worknig toward being and Admiral, and now I'll be a Commodore!" Letters to the Navy Times and what not got ridiculous. It was pathetic.

To quell their sobbing, the Congress and Navy comprised: The one-star rank became Rear Admiral (Lower-Half) or RDML, and the two-star rank became Rear Admiral (Upper-Half) or RADU. Soon, RADU was transformed back to the traditional RADM.

I wrote a letter to the Navy Times, which fortunately didn't get printed considering I was an active duty Navy lieutenant at the time. I offered some alternative Navy-like titles for the one star rank, including:

Read Admiral Junior Grade (RAJG)

Read Admiral Apprentice (RAMA)
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Bill, the Navy and its ranks is almost as comical as the Navy and its uniforms!

You left out one step in your great saga above about flag rank changes. After the outcry about instituting the new O7 rank of Commodore ("I wanna be called Admiral!"), the Navy changed the O7 rank briefly to Commodore-Admiral. Thanks God someone realized how idiotic that sounded, and went to the RDML/RADM solution.

Sheesh!
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jpr755 wrote:
Bill, the Navy and its ranks is almost as comical as the Navy and its uniforms!

You left out one step in your great saga above about flag rank changes. After the outcry about instituting the new O7 rank of Commodore ("I wanna be called Admiral!"), the Navy changed the O7 rank briefly to Commodore-Admiral. Thanks God someone realized how idiotic that sounded, and went to the RDML/RADM solution.

Sheesh!


Yeah, the whole thing was absurd, Jim. As a junior officer who had been looking up to Captains and flag O's, it showed me a side of careers that I wished I had never encountered.

As for the uniforms, I think the Navy had kept a reasonable tradition until they chose the digital-blue/gray work uniform. It's more expensive than the uniforms it replace, and it's only practical use appears to be to hide stains.
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Eldard wrote:
jpr755 wrote:
Bill, the Navy and its ranks is almost as comical as the Navy and its uniforms!

You left out one step in your great saga above about flag rank changes. After the outcry about instituting the new O7 rank of Commodore ("I wanna be called Admiral!"), the Navy changed the O7 rank briefly to Commodore-Admiral. Thanks God someone realized how idiotic that sounded, and went to the RDML/RADM solution.

Sheesh!


Yeah, the whole thing was absurd, Jim. As a junior officer who had been looking up to Captains and flag O's, it showed me a side of careers that I wished I had never encountered.

As for the uniforms, I think the Navy had kept a reasonable tradition until they chose the digital-blue/gray work uniform. It's more expensive than the uniforms it replace, and it's only practical use appears to be to hide stains.


Fortunately I slipped over the gunwale just prior to the "Aqua-flage" uniform rolling into the Fleet. But maybe you weren't around for "Salt and Pepper," the navy blue pants and the white top. And I also remember the Zumwalt edict to give all Sailors the Combination Cover, since some thought the dixie cup was silly looking. Lord, how they hated those combo covers.

Over 30 years, I saw more uniform shenanigans based on the flavor-of-the-day inputs from countless Uniform Boards than I can remember. And the end result was Sailors having to shell out money for all the changes.
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jpr755 wrote:
Eldard wrote:
jpr755 wrote:
Bill, the Navy and its ranks is almost as comical as the Navy and its uniforms!

You left out one step in your great saga above about flag rank changes. After the outcry about instituting the new O7 rank of Commodore ("I wanna be called Admiral!"), the Navy changed the O7 rank briefly to Commodore-Admiral. Thanks God someone realized how idiotic that sounded, and went to the RDML/RADM solution.

Sheesh!


Yeah, the whole thing was absurd, Jim. As a junior officer who had been looking up to Captains and flag O's, it showed me a side of careers that I wished I had never encountered.

As for the uniforms, I think the Navy had kept a reasonable tradition until they chose the digital-blue/gray work uniform. It's more expensive than the uniforms it replace, and it's only practical use appears to be to hide stains.


Fortunately I slipped over the gunwale just prior to the "Aqua-flage" uniform rolling into the Fleet. But maybe you weren't around for "Salt and Pepper," the navy blue pants and the white top. And I also remember the Zumwalt edict to give all Sailors the Combination Cover, since some thought the dixie cup was silly looking. Lord, how they hated those combo covers.

Over 30 years, I saw more uniform shenanigans based on the flavor-of-the-day inputs from countless Uniform Boards than I can remember. And the end result was Sailors having to shell out money for all the changes.


Salt-and-pepper disappeared a couple of years after I got in, as did the Zumwalt dress blues for E-6 and below. The beards also disappeared by my third or fourth year.

I must say that I would prefer salt-and-pepper for E-6 and below to that khaki-shirt-black-trouser combination they have now.

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jpr755 wrote:




"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody threads today, Chatfield."


I got to play a WW1 miniatures wargame with one of that guy's grandsons. Funny thing is he wanted to play the Germans!
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jpr755 wrote:

Fortunately I slipped over the gunwale just prior to the "Aqua-flage" uniform rolling into the Fleet. But maybe you weren't around for "Salt and Pepper," the navy blue pants and the white top. And I also remember the Zumwalt edict to give all Sailors the Combination Cover, since some thought the dixie cup was silly looking. Lord, how they hated those combo covers.

Over 30 years, I saw more uniform shenanigans based on the flavor-of-the-day inputs from countless Uniform Boards than I can remember. And the end result was Sailors having to shell out money for all the changes.


I was there for the switch from the Zumwalt salt & pepper with combo cover to the retro "craker-jack" with dixie cup. That antique cracker-jack uniform was not very practical. Thirteen buttons on the fly?!? The dixie cup hat was so light it would blow away in the wind, such as when lining the rails for the ship's entry into port. I didn't really like having to spend the money on that uniform change. Thought about keeping one wool cracker-jack uniform when I got out, mainly to use as a Halloween costume. But I decided to sell it cheap to another poor sailor of my rank and rate, since he had a family and uniform costs were painful for him.
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How about some links?

NATO ranks:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranks_and_insignia_of_NATO

WW1 - the War at Sea:

http://www.gwpda.org/naval/n0000000.htm

Admiral Scheer's book on the High Seas Fleet at War Times Journal:

http://www.richthofen.com/scheer/

Admiral Jellicoe's book on the Grand Fleet at archive.org:

http://www.archive.org/stream/grandfleetitscr00eargoog#page/...

Ships of the world's navies (great history & photos):

http://www.worldnavalships.com/index.htm

Forum thread on Air Group 11 - USS Hornet - late WW2 (great photos):

http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f...

Anyway, hope that gets the pump primed for some naval discussion.

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