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Subject: Give me your best shot, why wouldn't I like this game? rss

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Beyer
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Being on the Seki forums now, I'd wager that those who frequent these forums are those that are already fans of the game. Naturally this skews the responses I'm going to get. I'm aware of that, but I don't know where I'd put this otherwise. I can always find praise for a game, but what about the negatives. What are they?

Tell me all about why I wouldn't like Sekigahara. There has to be issues with the game, tell me...
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Larry Haskell
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Re: Give me your best shot, why woudn't I like this game?

It'll prevent other games from ever seeing the table.

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Reinhard Mueller
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Re: Give me your best shot, why woudn't I like this game?
http://bgg.cc/collection/items/boardgame/25021?comment=1&sor...
 
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Nagato Fujibayashi

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Re: Give me your best shot, why woudn't I like this game?
mmmmm, minor ones.... my copy came with badly colored gold blocks but I'm sure this issue will be fixed in the 2nd edition.

Then, it depends on how you treat the luck issue. I don't like luck and Sekigahara has enough of it but still I think it's great since the lucky element comes through cards and not dice. But it is a common convention in wargames so most probably it won't be an issue for you either.

Then, maneuver is very restricted in this game. I like games that emphasize on maneuver so it pains me to see my armies stand still for weeks but again this goes perfectly according to the campaign that the game is inspired from. It is 100% a maneuver game, don't misunderstand me, it's only not so free.

Then, some people have spoken on a replayability issue. I haven't had enough sessions to have an opinion but as a first impression the cards and random units in the setup and reinforcements phase can keep it very interesting for long time. The secondary roads somehow tall me that there can be a lot of options for different strategic planning as well.

The blocks are slippery, but if properly stacked this is no issue.

There is some heavy traffic sometimes on the Western part of the map near Kyoto but this is no issue really.

I don't know, I think I've tried enough.....

....go get it, it's great!!!


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Beyer
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Re: Give me your best shot, why woudn't I like this game?
etagimbo wrote:

Thanks. I read that list but it's all one-liners and I can't ask for clarifications from people that just commented on the game, that's why I asked in the forums.

Main gripes seem to be: Too abstract, you don't get to move your entire army every turn and it's a game about handling a hand of cards, limited replayability and boring end games.

What do YOU think is wrong with it?
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Beyer
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Re: Give me your best shot, why woudn't I like this game?
Let's say I view Sekigahara as an abstract bluffing game that revolves heavily around card hand management/pruning. Would I be far off then?
 
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Don Smith
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Re: Give me your best shot, why woudn't I like this game?
Stunke wrote:
Let's say I view Sekigahara as an abstract bluffing game that revolves heavily around card hand management/pruning. Would I be far off then?


Correct in some sense but poker has the same attributes and millions of people still play poker every day.

Sekigahara has poker-like elements. If you want a deterministic chess-like experience you might well be disappointed.

I like games that have "decision-making under uncertainty" and give me that sinking feeling in my gut when things start to go wrong...
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Ocean Druen
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Re: Give me your best shot, why woudn't I like this game?
shinobu wrote:

Then, some people have spoken on a replayability issue. I haven't had enough sessions to have an opinion but as a first impression the cards and random units in the setup and reinforcements phase can keep it very interesting for long time. The secondary roads somehow tall me that there can be a lot of options for different strategic planning as well.


I do find this a little bit of an issue. There is more replayability than I indicated in my review - I find myself going back to it from time to time.

To mirror some others here, this game seems like a long abstract with some cards for a luck factor. This isn't "bad" but it was not what I expected when I ordered the game (many moons ago). If you are not looking for this type of game you may still enjoy it (many here were in that boat) but just know what you are getting into
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Evil Bob
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Re: Give me your best shot, why woudn't I like this game?
Stunke wrote:
Tell me all about why I wouldn't like Sekigahara. There has to be issues with the game, tell me...


I think it would be easier if you told us what it is that you're looking for in a game.

This is NOT the game for you if you're looking for;
- dice driven combat
- CRT driven combat
- Chit-pull systems
- a CDG with events
- an economic engine
- a game without "fog of war", where your knowledge of the conflict is absolute
- a game where the is no uncertainty of control over your units in battle
- hex or area based movement
- games concerning deep logistics such as supply lines

This game has none of that.

As to the theme, this game's mechanisms fit the theme like a glove. There are very few historical conflicts that have been "simulated" well where your forces are composed of clans or groups that you may or may not have total control over when it comes time for battle. Generally most wargames simulate 2 cohesive armies battling it out. With this game's mechanisms, you can bring a large force into battle, but then you have to hope that you can activate them into fighting for your cause. The only other conflict that comes to mind right away where this mechanism would fit perfectly would be the Scottish/English conflict (ie. Hammer of the Scots) but not many others. If this theme and mechanisms don't sound interesting to you, then I'd stay away from this game altogether.

Just for the record, I hate poker. I love this game.
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Beyer
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Re: Give me your best shot, why woudn't I like this game?
bbhalla wrote:

I think it would be easier if you told us what it is that you're looking for in a game.

I am intentionally not asking for praises, since this is the seki forums. Praises are not far off. In my experience, what makes or breaks a well reviewed game are the things no one mentions.

Dominion for instance. It sucks for 2 players! I can't stand how the game always becomes a race to draw from those two/three piles of cards that actually make sense to draw from. You can make plenty of strategies but only one will give you victory the fastest.
I have the base set and the first expansion and still the game is awfully droll when were playing 2. No one mentions this unless you ask for the downsides specifically, because asking for praise never really gets you anywhere I think. Critique is what makes the world go round.

So, I wont say what I'm looking for because those needs can often be shoe-horned into a recommendation. 'know what I mean?

bbhalla wrote:

- CRT driven combat
- Chit-pull systems
- hex or area based movement

I don't know what those are meant to cover. I ain't no board game grognard, I'm a long time miniature gamer who got fed the f*** up with painting hundreds of little dollies for 80 page rule sets that are too complex for their own good. I'm not familiar with the jargon. Yet


bbhalla wrote:

Just for the record, I hate poker. I love this game.

Android: Netrunner is a bluffing game to a large extent. It's tremendously good. Bluffing is by no means restricted to poker but it is one of the best game mechanics out there, because it is the epitome of player interaction. This is also relevant because your choice of opponent becomes the prime deciding factor whether the game is going to be good or not. If one player can bluff and the other cannot, no amount of well-written rules will balance the game.
If you are on equal footing the game becomes tremendously good.
Am I making sense?
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Beyer
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Re: Give me your best shot, why woudn't I like this game?
DarkTori wrote:

I do find this a little bit of an issue.

Can you rebalance the set-up phase and still have a proper game?
Could you for instance randomly draw every starting piece and still put stacks of equivalent height on the starting locations?

Could you draw all the block you need for setting up at the same time and then selectively deploy your army, still using the starting locations indicated in the rules?

Or would the game just crash and burn and be decided by whomever got a hand of cards that matches his setup best?
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Hugues Richard
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Re: Give me your best shot, why woudn't I like this game?
out to lunch wrote:
No chrome, very little historical flavour, generic system that could be transposed to just any other conflict, if you like maneuvering - well there's almost none of that here, frustrating due to the activation restrictions based on the luck of the draw, strategically not terribly open due to the limited number of road connections, replayability not very high (fixed set-up). Probably good for eurogamers who want to stray a bit from the kind of games they normally play, but a lot of wargamers are bound to find this frustrating.


Is this ironic? If not, I'm in total disagreement with that quote. As for your question : some space on the map are never used and others are too crowded, game is simple and could feel repetitive, unbalanced for gold (maybe fixed with the 2nd ed.), a pain to store, only 2 players, high analyses paralysis syndrome.
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R Larsen
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Re: Give me your best shot, why woudn't I like this game?
Frederik, why dont you come over and give it a try?
Ras
 
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Scipio O.
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Re: Give me your best shot, why woudn't I like this game?
Stunke wrote:
I'd wager that those who frequent these forums are those that are already fans of the game.


Given that this is clearly true, one place you may find occasional intelligent commentary on why some people don't like a game is in the ratings: start at or near the bottom and work up.

http://boardgamegeek.com/collection/items/boardgame/25021/pa...
 
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Beyer
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Re: Give me your best shot, why woudn't I like this game?
Scipio Oaklandus wrote:
Stunke wrote:
I'd wager that those who frequent these forums are those that are already fans of the game.


Given that this is clearly true, one place you may find occasional intelligent commentary on why some people don't like a game is in the ratings: start at or near the bottom and work up.

http://boardgamegeek.com/collection/items/boardgame/25021/pa...


Thx, but I got those at the very top of the thread. I wanted someone to actually post something so we could have an actual discussion. Often a bit of elaboration helps a lot to find out whether it's a real issue or not.
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Joseph Courtight
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The game has one of the best fogs of war of any block game. However, on the strategic level it makes no attempt to simulate how wars are actually battled. Moral spent on one side of the board should not prevent troops on the other side of the board from winning. Flanking terrain and supply really mean nothing here.

Thats the best I got.
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Ocean Druen
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Stunke wrote:
DarkTori wrote:

I do find this a little bit of an issue.

Can you rebalance the set-up phase and still have a proper game?
Could you for instance randomly draw every starting piece and still put stacks of equivalent height on the starting locations?

Could you draw all the block you need for setting up at the same time and then selectively deploy your army, still using the starting locations indicated in the rules?

Or would the game just crash and burn and be decided by whomever got a hand of cards that matches his setup best?


I have not tried to rebalance the game at all in the ways you mentioned; and I'm not looking to do so either.

The problem is more the terrain in Japan which forces you towards certain strategies. As a result the game results in armies moving in about three ways (with a fourth option where both sides wait too long and nothing happens). I have not had a wide variety of opponents so maybe this is the problem; but I've tried to do some crazy things too which hasn't resulted in much new.

The result has become a game I play infrequently (as it is quick and enjoyable) but IMO gets boring if you play it more often.
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Beyer
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Thanks everyone your efforts are much appreciated. You've convinced me that Sekigahara is a good buy.

The reason I've looked into it, is because I have a couple of friends in mind who'd most likely love to have a evening of beer and samurai warfare so the game needs to be simple, fast, empathic and post actual interesting choices without entangling the players in a paralysis-inducing decision tree.

1) The lack of dice is good. It means less whining when someone f*** up in a fight.

2) The cards seems good to me, because you can bluff and I know at least some of my opponents would love to screw me over on a stone cold lie.

3)Simple rules are always good for drinking and as long as the game poses actual interesting choices (which by far it seems to, as long as you are willing to accept that your economics engine and supply lines are made up of a hand of cards that needs to be distilled to be efficient) as well as what seems to be a lot of risk/reward then I'm perfectly fine with it.

Replayability DOES seem to be an issue, especially if I'm going to play this a lot more than my opponents and no one have touched upon diverging player skill yet.

Is sekigahara so much of a skill game that the better player will always win?
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Larry Haskell
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[q="Stunke"

Is sekigahara so much of a skill game that the better player will always win?[/q]

I think the better player is more likely to win, but it's not guaranteed. Although it is possible to get screwed by your card draw, I've seen bold bluffs win the day more often. If you pull bad cards, that may be the time for a daring bluff to buy yourself time to build a better hand.

If I have one complaint about the game, it's that it can be a bit anti-climactic. I've had a couple games where a decisive, dramatic victory occurred about 2/3 of the way through the game, with the loser having no real chance of recovering and playing out the last few turns. Now, the build up to that climactic battle is usually a cat-and-mouse game of who's-gonna-strike-first, but the last few turns can feel a bit unnecessary.

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Hugues Richard
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Stunke wrote:
Thanks everyone your efforts are much appreciated. You've convinced me that Sekigahara is a good buy.

The reason I've looked into it, is because I have a couple of friends in mind who'd most likely love to have a evening of beer and samurai warfare so the game needs to be simple, fast, empathic and post actual interesting choices without entangling the players in a paralysis-inducing decision tree.

1) The lack of dice is good. It means less whining when someone f*** up in a fight.

2) The cards seems good to me, because you can bluff and I know at least some of my opponents would love to screw me over on a stone cold lie.

3)Simple rules are always good for drinking and as long as the game poses actual interesting choices (which by far it seems to, as long as you are willing to accept that your economics engine and supply lines are made up of a hand of cards that needs to be distilled to be efficient) as well as what seems to be a lot of risk/reward then I'm perfectly fine with it.

Replayability DOES seem to be an issue, especially if I'm going to play this a lot more than my opponents and no one have touched upon diverging player skill yet.

Is sekigahara so much of a skill game that the better player will always win?


Good decision and I perfectly understand your disdain about minis. I suggest you look into the free “Kings of war” rules set which can be something interesting if you ever want to do something with your 1,000,000$ armies, baring you play fantasy.

1) You can have paralysis situation and whining when you draw excellent cards at the end of a turn B’ battle because the next step will be to throw away half your hand before drawing 5 cards at the beginning of next turn A’. Knowing that you need to discard to issue commands, force march and deploy units, you’ll spend half the game thinking about which ones to keep and which ones to trash.

However, if you have a bad hand, you can plan for it, hopefully seize initiative with the best card you’ve got and pull back. Discarding 2 cards in the command phase allows you to move every unit of your allegiance. Another plan is to (build altars, pray and make sacrifices to the gods while holding position) trash as many cards you like and draw as much without making any manoeuvers. This can also help recycle your deck faster if you know most of your big ones are already used and discarded. Cards really represent lots of things from moral, allegiance, fatigue, fighting spirit, economics, supply, tactics (order in which you use them to deploy) and if blocks set fog of war, cards surely represent winds of war.

2) There’s a part of bluff that comes with moving big stacks forward when you don’t have the cards to deploy them or retreating not far enough when you do but also, give false information by making it seems like you have a Loyalty Challenge card you could have played earlier when you don’t and the opposite. By the time you get use to the game, you’ll find new ways of using information your opponent has to your advantage, like discarding a double mon card to deploy a single block even though you have single mon cards of the same faction in hand.

3) Don’t drink on your first few games (unless it’s sake) and especially if you’re even more indecisive on alcohol.

Even though no two games are identical, having only two sides do raise replayability issues, especially in the short term. If you play four different people that do not play each other, you’ll definitely grow better than them but a better player will not always win. Share the love if you want even win % is my advice. As said before and again here, I can’t understand the point of view of our fellow French player. How can this game not have a strong narrative or historical flavor when half the rulebook legitimises the mechanics with historical quotes and information? Je serais très heureux de lire votre opinion sur le sujet si vous vouliez bien la préciser par des exemples, ici ou par MP. On scale, this game abstracts the 7 weeks campaign of Sekigahara, not the 6 hour battle.
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