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Subject: When are the next two factions expected (Germans and Italians)? rss

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Aitor
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After preordering Magestorm and seeing how the game sank with no expansions published, I learned that if you're getting into an expensive game system, you'd better wait for the game to have some variety before making the big purchase.

So, even if I like the concept and miniatures of Leviathans, I'm waiting for the next factions to be published before buying anything.

Does anybody know when will be available the next two factions? Do you know if there is going to be another "big box" with maps or individual fleet boxes?
 
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Noel
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The surest way to let a game system stagnate is to hold off on purchasing until it has grown further.
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William Gaskill
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No ideasoblue but it better be soon or the Game could sink.
It's a shame but if a company can't supply product when it's wanted,
chances are players move on.

I got sucked into BattleLore & now it looks like Leviathans
may also enter the endless wait.

OD
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Leo Zappa
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n815e wrote:
The surest way to let a game system stagnate is to hold off on purchasing until it has grown further.


I have to agree. If you think you might like a particular system, and you've liked the reviews you've read, I think you need to take the risk and buy in early. Game producers, especially these days, are going to take a very hard look at initial sales when contemplating investing more into the product. If too many people hold off buying until expansions are available, this will kill the product line and in effect become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I know in my experience, I bought in full bore to the Axis & Allies War at Sea miniatures line. Happily, enough others did and the game saw six (6) expansion waves issued over several years. If those early adopters had held back, perhaps Hasbro kills the game early.

Don't get me wrong - don't buy into the system if you are unsure if you'd like the game. Read reviews and look at the pictures and form an opinion. But, if you do decide that the game is for you, you should buy it now. This will only increase the odds that additional products will make their way to market!
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John Goodhand
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Both of these topics (#1. When will we see the next Lev's expansion, and #2. What will happen if we don't see it soon), have been bantered about over on the Leviathans web site Forums, almost daily. Check out the discussions here... >

I have to agree with all of your comments so far. This represents the dual horns of a dilemma: understandable reluctance to get sucked into another new expensive game system that may not succeed vs. the game won't succeed unless more people buy into it early and provide the necessary investment capital for further development.

Manufacturers don't make games so that we gamers can have FUN! They only spend their money up front hoping for a decent Return On their Investment. From my limited perspective (I do own several huge quasi- 'war game' miniatures collections, including LotR:Combat-Hex, BattleCry, BattleLore, PotC, StarWars, HeroClix, and HeroScape), it seems that designing, improving, enhancing, and expanding new game systems is an EVOLUTIONARY process. As long as a product and its adjustment iterations pay off with a sufficient ROI, then the producers can continue in that intended direction. Or else some non-gaming corporate accounting executive will eventually pull the plug on the entire project. Much to the chagrin of the creators, artists, and fans.

Meanwhile, the Gaming Community is very fickled. Many of us have witnessed our favorite games go Out Of Print, falling into the abyss of forgotten dreams and wishful fantasies. We've become miserly in how we spend our money and overly cautious about getting "sucked" into the black hole of another money pit. This may be more prevalent in America's Instant-Gratification Society than among Europeans or Asians, but judging from what I've read on this site over the years, it appears that too many gamers "WANT WHAT THEY WANT WHEN THEY WANT IT" or else they'll go play something different. They're always chasing the latest fads and needing more perks to stay involved. There is very little patience for a process to unfold while a product is being developed.

LEVIATHANS is a great game in itself: beautiful artwork, interesting story line, wonderful models, challenging mechanics, devouted fans, room for expansiion, etc. Will it succeed and be around for 25 years like Catalyst Labs' "BattleTech" - who knows? I ain't got no crystal ball. I bought the core box set last August at GenCon and the two current expansion fleets (British & French) in December, BECAUSE... three of my friends LOVE this game and we get to play it together. Not as often as I would like, but frequent enough for me to consider it a worthwhile investment of my time and money, as Agricola, Alhambra, Apples-to-Apples, BC, BL, Carcassonne, Catan, ... Zobmondo, collect dust in the closet.
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Aitor
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Old Dwarf wrote:
No ideasoblue but it better be soon or the Game could sink.
It's a shame but if a company can't supply product when it's wanted,
chances are players move on.

I got sucked into BattleLore & now it looks like Leviathans
may also enter the endless wait.

OD


After reading your post, I guess that these factions were expected by now but they are being delayed for some reason. Is that correct? Do you really think that this game has chances of getting swamped like Battlelore, or was it just unexpected pessimism? I have no idea about this, I'm just asking.

desertfox2004 wrote:
n815e wrote:
The surest way to let a game system stagnate is to hold off on purchasing until it has grown further.


I have to agree. If you think you might like a particular system, and you've liked the reviews you've read, I think you need to take the risk and buy in early. Game producers, especially these days, are going to take a very hard look at initial sales when contemplating investing more into the product. If too many people hold off buying until expansions are available, this will kill the product line and in effect become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I know in my experience, I bought in full bore to the Axis & Allies War at Sea miniatures line. Happily, enough others did and the game saw six (6) expansion waves issued over several years. If those early adopters had held back, perhaps Hasbro kills the game early.

Don't get me wrong - don't buy into the system if you are unsure if you'd like the game. Read reviews and look at the pictures and form an opinion. But, if you do decide that the game is for you, you should buy it now. This will only increase the odds that additional products will make their way to market!


Yes, I understand the dilemma. I have been an early adopter for a long time, but other experiences made me cagey, and a 85€ leap of faith is too much for me these days. I don't wish this game to fail, I just don't want to take that risk, even if my passivity hurts the sales. As a customer, I don't feel evil for behaving that way: I'm the one to be seduced, and as a publisher, they're the ones to be taking risks. After all, it's my money.

I probably would never have bought more than 4 or 5 factions, so I don't really mind if Leviathans eventually swamps somewhere after that. That makes 4 factions my "risk threshold".

But 2 factions are so few that they don't bring any variance. I wish they had published more factions from the start, that way these 85€ would seem a safer investment. Even Battlelore, which is actually swamped, has more variety than that and therefore feels like a less risky purchase.
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Johngee wrote:
Both of these topics (#1. When will we see the next Lev's expansion, and #2. What will happen if we don't see it soon), have been bantered about over on the Leviathans web site Forums, almost daily. Check out the discussions here... >


Thanks, I didn't know these forums. I'll check them right now.
 
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John Goodhand
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"BattleLore" is still a good game in my opinion. I am holding onto my copies, hoping I'll meet a Medieval War Gamer at a Renaissance Faire. The scenario booklet provides the set up instructions to recreate many famous historical battles, i.e. Agincourt, Hastings, etc. It had a nice run with several expansion sets. I just could not afford to keep buying them for a game I was not playing while I also wanted the HeroScape epansions, which was getting plenty of table time with my very young grandsons. Personally, I think the design team of "BL" was diverted to the production of the very similar "Westeroos" because it gave them an opportunity to "fix" some of the mechanics shortcomings and connect with the extremely popular "Game Of Thrones" story-line via, the novels and television series, thus providing an expanded fan base.

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At BGG Con this past November, for the Catalyst Gamelabs booth said that they were playtesting the next two factions (Germany and Italy, I think). So I'm not sure that you should expect them too soon.

An expansion/additional content every six months or so is acceptable, even just one per year. So I wouldn't jump to any conclusions just yet.

The expansions just hit shelves in, what, October?
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cmontgo2 wrote:
At BGG Con this past November, for the Catalyst Gamelabs booth said that they were playtesting the next two factions (Germany and Italy, I think). So I'm not sure that you should expect them too soon.


I see. In the catalyst forums they say that they have just finished the art for the German and Italian ships, so they will need a long time until they finish the miniatures and publish those factions.


cmontgo2 wrote:
An expansion/additional content every six months or so is acceptable, even just one per year. So I wouldn't jump to any conclusions just yet.

The expansions just hit shelves in, what, October?


The problem is that the added value of the two expansions (British and French fleet boxes) is near zero. For the price of the two expansions, you can buy a second starter that comes with the same set of components, plus extra maps. I know that the Fleet Boxes have some exclusive ship sheets, but that's a cheap trick to make you buy them, as those sheets could be easily released as PDFs instead of inside a 45€ box with redundant miniatures.

Also, in the catalyst forums, I have learnt that the next expansion is called "Captain's Box", and it's going to be just a rulebook (with no miniatures) which is supposed to be essential to play the game at its full potential, but somehow it was removed from the starter box because "they already crammed way too much inside the starter box". Apparently, the booklet explaining the universe background stayed in the starter box while an important part of the rules were removed.
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John Goodhand
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Hollyhock wrote:


The problem is that the added value of the two expansions (British and French fleet boxes) is near zero. For the price of the two expansions, you can buy a second starter that comes with the same set of components, plus extra maps. I know that the Fleet Boxes have some exclusive ship sheets, but that's a cheap trick to make you buy them, as those sheets could be easily released as PDFs instead of inside a 45€ box with redundant miniatures.

Also, in the catalyst forums, I have learnt that the next expansion is called "Captain's Box", and it's going to be just a rulebook (with no miniatures) which is supposed to be essential to play the game at its full potential, but somehow it was removed from the starter box because "they already crammed way too much inside the starter box". Apparently, the booklet explaining the universe background stayed in the starter box while an important part of the rules were removed.


YES, you've got that right! And it was the same conundrum that I pondered. Being a "Collection Complete-ist" I opted for the two expansion sets and the exclusive ship data cards. BUT in hindsight... for strictly game playing purposes it would have wiser to buy a second Core Starter Set to get the eight duplicate ship models along with two extra maps and two extra sets of the six unique dice. That is... IF I could have borrowed the the new ship data cards from a friend and taken them to an office supply store for photocopying and laminating. So that might have cost me an additional ten bucks ($10.oo), it would be worth it to get the maps and dice which are not yet available separately, and may never be available locally. As it turned out, I got my expansions before he did. This game would be fantastic if Catalyst Labs would pump out at least one new ship data card for each of the six ship classes every month. I think many players would buy them via mail order or subscription, which would keep the game fresh, the fan base energized, and a ca$h flow coming in to fund further development of new factions.

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